Skip to content


Unknown Speaker 0:01
Welcome to Devotional Anarchy, a podcast about intimacy, attachment, sexuality, spirituality, self expression and other relational themes from a trauma responsive somatic energetic lens, and with a queer polyamorous twist, of course. I’m Isha Vela trauma psychologist somatic intimacy Alchemist shadow doula love at our guest, intuitive channel and sovereignty coach. You’re here because you understand that integrating intimacy wounds build safety and trust within your body. And that safety and trust is what allows you to fully own and direct your erotic and creative lifeforce in your relationships and purposeful work. My intention is for the conversations and tools shared in this podcast, to light a fire in your heart and under your magical ass while supporting you on your kinky human journey to owning all of yourself. All right, y’all. This is a hot conversation with Fauna Gold – we met through Carolyn Elliot’s existential Kink Community and Kari Lu Cowell, who I met through Julia Wells’s visible AF community. And the three of us got together to talk about what the embodiment of leadership and power really really means. And as you know, embodying leadership and love and business from a place of vulnerability and integrity is my passion. And this particular conversation was sparked from an unpleasant experience I’d had with a leader in the polyamory community who clearly did not walk his talk around intimacy, attunement and repair. So he and I had a rupture. And when I,

Unknown Speaker 1:31
when I reached out to him to do repair work, he sort of kept putting it off. And then when I sort of questioned it more deeply, he said that I wasn’t important enough for him to really have that repair conversation. And I’m just not a believer, I just felt that was totally out of integrity. So after posting about this experience on Facebook, I got a flood of notes from people who had had similar experiences with other leaders, and found out was somebody who’d had an equally icky experience with him. Kerry was someone who reached out to me as well so we decided to have a public conversation about it. So let me tell you a little bit about found out and Carrie, founder is in a certified erotic blueprint coach, orgasmic arc coach and training accelerated evolution guide and functional herbalist. They are the founders of the Astro herbal apothecary Rosen arrows, Earth medicines for ecstatic vitality, and they support visionaries and serve thrivers of all genders and sexual orientations to overflow their authentic pleasure cup. Heal emotional blockages that prevent them from living their fullest lives and come home to who they really are as their most vast self. Carrie works as an anti soulmate love coach. Carrie helps liberate people from harmful romantic conditioning and insecure relational patterns so that they can create relationships rooted in safety, sovereignty and vulnerability. And Carrie specializes in relationships outside of the SIS het monogamous norm, ie polyamory, kink, BDSM, queer people who want to step off the relationship escalator. So of course, yes, you can imagine the conversation gets kinky pretty quickly. But we also address how internalized systems of oppression play out energetically in our relationships, all of them, and how radical self ownership can move us toward more humanized and energetic models of leadership. So give it a listen, and let me know what you think. So thank you all for for agreeing to come on here and and talk about leadership and about harm that happens in leadership and and how we can better embody and integrate leadership and what that what that even means from each of our perspectives. So thank you for being here.

Unknown Speaker 3:42
You’re welcome. I’m excited. I’m excited to have this conversation. Yeah. So so this, this was sparked.

Unknown Speaker 3:50
You know, for those of you listening, this was sparked by an experience I had with are with someone in, in a container a leader in a container that was

Unknown Speaker 4:02
it was an unpleasant experience and it was like someone who purported to,

Unknown Speaker 4:10
to, like practice intimacy and attunement and relationships and in relationship with me was was absolutely not attuned and not willing to do the deeper repair work that that he he purports to sell and practice. And so that’s really a matter of body meant and integrity. Right. Integrity is about embodiment. So I was wanting to hear from you sort of what that sparked for you and why you wanted to come on here and talk about that.

Unknown Speaker 4:42
Yeah, thank you.

Unknown Speaker 4:46
I have processing sort of a similar experience with a one on one coach who like really ended sales.

Unknown Speaker 4:55
Just brilliant, right? And then the actual end

Unknown Speaker 5:00
embodiment of

Unknown Speaker 5:04
staying in the fire. Right, is, I think that’s a phrase that I think of a lot like, it is uncomfortable for our animal selves, our raw emotions and our in our egos to be like to mess it up in some way or, you know, even if it’s not intentional, you know, there’s a difference between intention and impact often but, but to not only impact, and then like, stay with it so that humans can actually grow together, that’s one of the tenants that I’m living my life by is that the purpose of all relationships is growth. And that then is love, right?

Unknown Speaker 5:46
Our culture, we think we should just get love automatically. And so we don’t stay in the fire when things like get really, you know, activated as they will in any sort of, like, deeply transformational work. I think that this comes with the territory, but that’s like, my commitment of staying in the fire. And do I do that perfectly? No.

Unknown Speaker 6:09
That is the process of it. Right? Right. So I can definitely have compassion for that, you know, the, the scared aspect of that person that’s like, or they’re just resistant, I don’t have the energy, return of energy, I’m not going to get actual money or clients or get more, you know, it just there’s, there can be something sort of

Unknown Speaker 6:39
it’s just like a shining down in the energy like,

Unknown Speaker 6:43
and that can be really painful for the person on the other end.

Unknown Speaker 6:47
Yes, we create some early childhood imprints of like, there’s been rupture without repair so many times for so many of us. Yes, yes. And, and I really love what you said, like, Yeah, nobody does this perfectly. And that I feel a lot of what a lot of the intimacy work happens in the repair process. Right, all of the the healing, a lot of the healing happens in the repair process, when we’re able to say, you know, what, I really messed up. And I was totally out of integrity. I mean, I just, I just did it last week with a partner where I’m just like, wow, I really lost sight of myself. And these are, these are all the ways where I, I betrayed myself, you know, and I went out and like, there were two or three things where I was like, Yeah, and that, that hurt me, but it also hurt our relationship, you know? And it’s like, and there was this opening of like, Oh, I see you better. And I see what you need and want even more now. And I can like be with you in that. Yeah. I think there’s a lot of systemic issues that we can look to as well. And that does not like I’m not saying that that negates the personal responsibility, because it absolutely doesn’t. But at least so I’m in America, I’m in Los Angeles, California, and like I grew up in America,

Unknown Speaker 8:07
middle of the country, America, so even more like systemic oppression in various ways there, right.

Unknown Speaker 8:15
So again, like I’m not saying it negates the personal responsibility, but because it is so much a part of our overarching culture here in the West, at least for Westerners,

Unknown Speaker 8:28
part of the embodiment if we want to create these brave spaces, if we want to actually live the truth of what we’re speaking to requires deconditioning from the systemic systems from the system’s

Unknown Speaker 8:47
otherwise, we are just going to continue these actions of harm.

Unknown Speaker 8:55
Absolutely, those systems live inside of us, right. Like, I talk about attachment is like happens in our family of origin, but we also have, like attachment wounds or intimacy wounds that are connected to systems of disempowerment and oppression, right. And we perpetuate those in our relationship, right. There’s like, it’s like a nested model of Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of these systems we’re so unaware of like, especially when it comes to intimacy like we are taught to be very codependent when it comes to romance specifically Yeah. And

Unknown Speaker 9:36
and especially if you have like this romantic connection and AC this to even in the non monogamous communities, it’s still Trump’s oftentimes, you know, again, if you haven’t done the work, it’s still Trump’s every other relationship once you get into that romantic partnership or partnerships and it’s

Unknown Speaker 9:53
there’s there’s a lot of work there’s a lot of things to decondition from, and I mean even this like conflict of

Unknown Speaker 10:00
wouldn’t like nobody’s taught, we’re all taught, again, in the West, that conflict is bad, and it needs to be avoided at all costs, which increases people pleasing, which increases, you know, well, all of these other like, problematic behaviors.

Unknown Speaker 10:16
Right? And when you think about, like, when I know that when I’m in conflict with someone, like when I have to bring a grievance, like, Yeah, I’m nervous, I can feel my nervous system activation, I could feel my fear of having the person retaliate, all that kind of stuff. And when a grievance is brought towards me, you know, from a client or from somebody that I’m that I’m really wanting to serve, like, yeah, I can feel how scared I get.

Unknown Speaker 10:47
And it goes back to I think, like, what found I said, What you said was, so the capacity to stay in the fire, like to hold the flare of whatever activation is happening, whatever aspects are, like, right, all the fear that is arising around, losing something being left,

Unknown Speaker 11:08
you know, some some, some bad shit happening, you know, being rejected, etc, is like, can we hold all of those pieces and still stay in listening and hearing the other person while also holding like, right, and naming, I can feel how scared I am, as I hear you, sharing with me what you didn’t like about our last interaction?

Unknown Speaker 11:33
Yeah, I think too. Like, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done both systemically and individually with like, everybody around like deconditioning from perfectionism, because if in the overarching system, especially if you’re coming from the place of like, being an expert, which I don’t love using that word, because I don’t love hierarchy. But like if you’re coming from that place, like as an expert, like we’ve been taught, and found, I don’t know you as well as I know Isha, but like, you know, we have graduate degrees. And like, even in like the graduate school system, we’re taught like, no, if you’re the expert, you need to be on top of your shit, you need to be perfect, you need to know exactly what you’re talking about, before you say anything. So there’s like so many different systems at play, of course, just like the fear and nervous system, activation of conflict in general, because nobody loves it, but it’s necessary for life for relationships for intimacy, but then you pile on top of that this idea that you’re supposed to know better, you’re supposed to be perfect. You’re supposed to be the expert, and you know, whatever else, whatever else has gotten triggered, and then that’s where you get this like, oh, okay, well, I have to be perfect. I have to be the expert. So you’re clearly wrong. And I’m not taking any responsibility for my peace in this relationship. Right. Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker 12:54
Yeah. And when we get into that thinking, I think it also perpetuates that whole, like, even even how we think of how we think about leadership, you know, and I, I, we tend to think of leadership, we have to decondition ourselves from thinking about leadership as something that’s hierarchical.

Unknown Speaker 13:12
as something that is

Unknown Speaker 13:17
like that, leadership has to be something like big, because we are in our leadership all the time, like how we show up to whatever relationship we’re in, that is our leadership. That is it’s an energetic experience, right? Like, being able to

Unknown Speaker 13:36
being able to show up as your full self in your humanity, and giving other people permission to do the same and, and supporting people and feeling safe in your energy. Like, for me, that’s really the deeper meaning of leadership. And we often lose sight of that because we’re into into this like, oh, it has to look this certain way or I have to be an expert. I was like, No, you get to be a full us human and you get to be fallible, and you get to you know, course correct and repair and I feel like that’s what we need to normalize as part of like, this is what leadership really looks like, and vulnerability, etc.

Unknown Speaker 14:16

Unknown Speaker 14:18
And for me a lot, you know, as a somatic sex educator and erotic blueprints coach and you know, a lot of like in sexuality, a lot of what we play out there is like a training ground for how we relate with power.

Unknown Speaker 14:34
I really think everyone in some aspect is kinky. Like there’s, there’s inherent in you know, a coach client relationship. I’ve been loving, reframing, dominating domination and submission as like leader and follower, which is lost hierarchical and more of a relational dance and the fight

Unknown Speaker 15:00
All the work gets something from that exchange someone who has gone before who’s trained? Or like, you know, even. Yeah, and like an example in like the military, the people who are training are learning to relinquish their personal will and follow the role of the leader. Right. And

Unknown Speaker 15:23
there’s something I think,

Unknown Speaker 15:27
around the power dynamic of that, that needs to be like, really clear that someone someone is the facilitator have a space, they hold a power, and there is a there’s like a deep responsibility to the well being of people who are like,

Unknown Speaker 15:46
like opening themselves to that experience to the learning there.

Unknown Speaker 15:52
And I’m just wondering, I don’t know where to take it from there. But that’s been something I’ve been just recalibrating my mind toward is it’s not like

Unknown Speaker 16:01
there’s power on both sides. Yes. And it’s just about being clear about the roles and being able to switch in those energies as needed in life. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 16:14
What, what is that what that’s reminding me of, is, like, when you’re facilitating a group, for example, like, there are moments there are those energy exchanges in in group work as well, where you are, you are sort of the supposedly leader you are, they’re like holding the space. And yet, like, when the group chooses something, or when the group is going in a specific direction, your leadership is about following the energy of the group, right, like leading by following and so there is that there is that energy dance that happens there and spaces as well? Yeah, I love that. I think it’s like deconditioning from that hierarchy that is so inherent in our world today. You know, and it’s I, I love King

Unknown Speaker 17:02
found I’m a love sex relationship coach, and I’ve been talking about kink all this month in my group, but really, like, what I come back to always, always is like having those conversations about, like, what that dynamic is going to look like prior to your play. Because

Unknown Speaker 17:24
Because I find that there’s this overarching idea that if you’re like a DOM, you’re just always in charge. Or if you’re a sub, you’re always submitting. And that’s not how it works. And there’s so much harm that can happen if you don’t have those conversations beforehand, or this awareness of like how those power dynamics play out. And they think that there is a direct link in terms of like how we view power

Unknown Speaker 17:50

Unknown Speaker 17:53
overarching society, and like politics, yes, but also like,

Unknown Speaker 17:59
in like, the smaller containers that we have is like leaders, right? As coaches, as you know, whatever it is managers, whatever it is that you do, but even just having that awareness, and like Isha was saying that flow between

Unknown Speaker 18:13
following and leading, because like topping from below is, is a thing, it’s a thing that I do a lot.

Unknown Speaker 18:22
And at the end of the day are right, oftentimes in these like power dynamics, like specifically in the kink space, right, so it’s a little different, it’s a little more nuanced and complex, when you when you bring it outside of the kink space, but like in the kink space, like, oftentimes, the submissive is the one who has all the power because it is a huge responsibility to essentially be in charge to dominate somebody.

Unknown Speaker 18:49
Absolutely. And how would you, you talk about, you talked earlier about, like, how we relate to power?

Unknown Speaker 18:58
And how do you define power? Like what’s real power to you?

Unknown Speaker 19:05
I have been banding around that question for a while now. Because

Unknown Speaker 19:13
one of the concepts that I’m aware of right is like soft power. So that’s power through like influence media, entertainment, etc. And that is really something I’ve been

Unknown Speaker 19:24
digging into more and it has brought up a lot of questions about what power looks like and what that means. Because I think, you know, at least in America, like we’re often taught that power is that hard power that domination that submission that getting people to do what you want that manipulation and exploitation and

Unknown Speaker 19:43
I, I feel like for me like that power would be more like what Elena was talking about that like, you know, leading and following and allowing that to be fluid because if you take away the hierarchy, it lends itself more to less

Unknown Speaker 20:00
At community care where everybody has power, it’s just different power, right? So I think all of us work in the realm of like sex love relationships. And that is where we hold, like expertise or power or where we can lead, right? But if you ask me about, I don’t know, like social media analytics or like, graphic design, like I have no power there, I don’t know how to do that shit. So like, of course, it’s to my benefit, too.

Unknown Speaker 20:35
I think to succeed, I think I’m using the right word. I’m very like COVID brain right now. So hopefully, that’s right but but to like secede my power to my graphic designer and say, I don’t like you’re the expert. You’re the person who has gone to school for this was learning these things like, you take charge. And then my job is to just like, say, Yes, I love this. No, I don’t love this. Can we make a couple of changes, you know, right. And that I feel is like true leadership is just letting people do the things that they’re good at. Mm hmm. So like, the distribution of power in a way like, yeah, like really like in that in that exchange? Or it’d be reciprocity of just like, yes, you do this, I do this for you. Or you do this for me. And we kind of like we get all of our needs met. And we get we get to these shared goals by each person bringing their unique medicine into the mix. Yes, yeah. And really relinquishing control. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 21:31
So opposite of how we learn what power is right? anguishing control versus like, Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 21:42
What about for you fauna? What? How do you define power? What’s power to you? Yeah, I think that power can come from different when I’m engaging in a system of up level communication with my mentor, Tonya Stevens of the progressive love Academy. And it’s really shifting, I’m aware. In Western culture, we don’t have a language for who’s speaking or who’s acting. So we have our raw animal self that’s really not logical, like children are in their raw emotions, and are just starting to develop an ego when we have in our ego, and it’s like, this is right, that’s wrong. I had the you know, the ego came up with the term like nervous system, and like, very hierarchical,

Unknown Speaker 22:25
black and white, until, like, egoic power, you know, is, is rigid, I think it’s like, I’m hooked, the ego wants to, like, wants to have things fixed. And so when I’m in that state of power, it’s like, I do not want to control. And I’m not very likely to want to, like, let let things flow dynamically.

Unknown Speaker 22:49
And so what I’ve really been want, like, cultivating is this is a transcendent power, or imminent power, right? It’s like, from the best self, I don’t really like the term higher self, which is everywhere, like, I don’t directionality.

Unknown Speaker 23:07
But like that state of power is, I think, what, what is here carry speaking to, it’s like, yeah, like what’s in service to a whole, and because I know I’m part of the whole, but that’s the way Bastille thinks is, like, it’s deeply inter sovereign interdependent, I’m part of, well being serves your well being, your well being. So it’s my well being so there is, it’s a relational dance. And, you know, and that can get really, you know, then the ego in the coach is like, but I’m the coach, I have to lead, I have to tell you what to do. Right. It was like,

Unknown Speaker 23:44
you know, my most powerful experiences have been when that can really flow and there’s, I get like, full body tingles. And both people become channels for their deepest knowing. And it’s fucking powerful. It’s

Unknown Speaker 24:00
when I like, I feel it in my whole body, thank you.

Unknown Speaker 24:07
I feel like, especially as like coaches, or therapists, like we have to let go of this idea that like, we know what to tell people what to do, or like how to do it, because I’m like, my, and I know some newer coaches as well. I’m like, coaching is not advice giving. I don’t tell anyone what to do. I just asked them a lot of questions. And then if they asked for it, I give them like, what my experience was, but because we’re all so different.

Unknown Speaker 24:32
There’s no one right way ever.

Unknown Speaker 24:36
That’s all I have to say about that. But you should I would love to hear you know what your concept of power is? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 24:45
I often think of power because my work is expressive. No, I do expressive body work. And so I feel like our power is in what we emanate energetically like in our, in our beingness and our authentic

Unknown Speaker 25:00
The city in

Unknown Speaker 25:02
I love the word that you use found out inter sovereign sovereignty is a word that’s really important to me because I, you know, I grew up in a, sort of in a household that was emotionally manipulative. And so I got, I got off and like, pulled in lots of different directions and to be pulled inward into my own wisdom, and into my own my own body as as sort of like, like homebase is really, really important to me to be very connected to my needs and my desires, and to my, my internal boundaries, and all that kind of stuff. That is really, and where I feel like I am aware of all of these aspects of myself, be it ego, or be it sort of this, this expansive self that I can, I can show all parts of that, like I have a relationship to my shadow. And that relationship is one that is compassionate, and I can, I can share my shadow and my partnerships, or, you know, like having a hold of my whole self. And being able to bring that into my relationships, that I feel like that’s really powerful. And like that, that is like, our beingness is a form of permission giving for other people to be in theirs. And it seems like if I can, if I can express all of who I am, then you can express all of who you are. But we can do it from a place of where it is inter sovereign, like it isn’t just about me and my expression, but about like, I’m also wanting to experience your expression, how does, how does our expression come together? Like what happens when we bring it together? And I don’t know, it is very deeply relational for me as well, is how that power is shared. How?

Unknown Speaker 26:50
Like, I love being in the,

Unknown Speaker 26:54
like, when I’m working with a client, I love being like, I love being the person in the background be like Yeah, yeah, go go, go go. Can No, because I love seeing people flourish. And and

Unknown Speaker 27:08
yeah, just express themselves express whatever truth is inside of them. So that for me is powerful. That is real power.

Unknown Speaker 27:19

Unknown Speaker 27:25

Unknown Speaker 27:28
going back to sort of the original intention of of this conversation about like leadership.

Unknown Speaker 27:39
I remember Carrie, you recently did a a workshop on on, like doing no harm or reducing harm? Can you share a little bit about that? Because I feel like that goes in well, with what we’re talking about here about like that awareness of like, how these systemic pieces come into our relational dynamics, the subtleties of it. And you found out you had talked about, you had begun to talk about energetics, like the awareness of energy. So like, let’s let’s bring that together. Yeah, so the workshop that I held recently was very on the nose, it was how not to perpetuate systems of oppression and love and dating, and relationships, right? Because there’s a lot so I am

Unknown Speaker 28:26
non binary, queer, trans racial, transnational adoptee from Taiwan, and there’s a lot I hold a lot of held multiple marginalized identities, and I am in partnership with a sis head straight white, or Yeah, no, yes, this hat, white male.

Unknown Speaker 28:44

Unknown Speaker 28:46
it is

Unknown Speaker 28:49
so apparent to me. And this is where I have to keep my ego, you know, you’re in check. But like, it is so apparent to me where, like the systems of privilege come into play and in our relationship, and that’s not to say like, privilege doesn’t mean he’s a bad person, but they’re just things that, like his life experience and how he comports himself in the world is just so different. Because of how he’s treated, right. He’s very attractive. He’s like six foot two and like 250 pounds, like so he’s a large dude. And there are certain things you know, just in the way he takes up space and the way that he even like walks our dogs, right in our neighborhood. Like, it’s a totally different experience. And sometimes he is on aware that like, my experience is different. And again, that’s not necessarily through like, any fault of his own because we’re all coming from our lived experience. And also like, the more that I mean, in our relationship, the more that I can make him aware of like how my experience differs from his

Unknown Speaker 30:00
Um, the more empathy and understanding he can have around

Unknown Speaker 30:10
the way that I move in the world and why, you know, I might not take up as much space or what or like, why it’s not okay for me to walk down a dark alleyway in the middle of the night with our dogs, you know, things like that. And again, like no fault on him, but I wanted to make sure that

Unknown Speaker 30:29
people have a resource where they can do that work on their own. And of course, like he’s doing that work on his end in a different way in terms of like decolonization and like dismantling systemic oppression, but sometimes I think it’s harder to bring that into the micro right especially because we do have this very monolithic way of seeing

Unknown Speaker 30:55
like we’re taught to see the world in a very monolithic way. So we see I’m doing this work of dismantling systemic systemic oppression I’m doing this decolonization work for

Unknown Speaker 31:06
the greater

Unknown Speaker 31:08
system right the greater world but are you also doing it with yourself? Are you also doing it in your micro systems right in your in your interpersonal like your intimate interpersonal relationships and I think that’s where

Unknown Speaker 31:24
it’s so easy to drop the ball because we are not aware of it and we so we don’t think about it right even in like

Unknown Speaker 31:33
you know, kink spaces non monogamous spaces, like oftentimes in in like different kink communities. I see a lot of like, politics don’t belong in kink, and like they’re talking like on a broad sentence, right? But that includes like social justice, decolonization work, etc, etc. And I’m like, look like I don’t hang out in public, communal kink spaces, because as like an Asian American femme, like, I am hyper sexualized, and I am fetishized without my consent. And so that’s why it’s so important that we do I mean, like, I don’t think Biden belongs in the king space. Maybe it does, if that’s your kink? I’m not really sure. Right? And I’m sure like on a more like macro level, it might actually really be important for us to talk about that stuff. Right. But like, but like, on a micro level, at the very least, like there needs to be this like, look at an awareness of like how systemic oppression affects these communities? Because I don’t think it

Unknown Speaker 32:31
like there’s a reason why a lot of kink spaces are like mainly white. Because I know I’m not the only melanated person who has been hyper sexualized or fetishized without my consent. Yeah. Yeah. And I know of, of, you know, have black friends in the kink community who don’t go to to white king spaces, like they go to King spaces that are that are set aside for melanated. Folks. Yeah, there’s just a different dynamic there. Yeah, totally. And again, I don’t think

Unknown Speaker 33:02
anyone’s doing it out of malice. I just think they’re unaware. And it’s also like, it becomes more nuanced and complex because like, we’re literally in a fetish space, right?

Unknown Speaker 33:13
Yeah. So what before I go to use on a carry? What are some? What are some of the ways that we perpetuate harm in dating and relationships?

Unknown Speaker 33:26
Like what some of the subtleties

Unknown Speaker 33:29
so like, again, I always say like, you know, I’m a big proponent of being self led so I always say it starts with you so really looking at your internal biases really looking at

Unknown Speaker 33:41
you know, how you move through the world and how that might be different from you know, like I said, my my partner is a sis white male, how he moves in the world as one of the most privileged people in fact, the most privileged person in society right category and society is completely different from how I move in the world even looking at like, Who or what features were attracted to and I think specifically and again, nuanced and complex far more than we can go into in this like one podcast episode, but like, Why are you only attracted to people with like, big lips and big eyes? Or why are you only attracted to like light skinned people? Like, yeah, attraction is just whatever you’re attracted to, but a lot of that comes from how we were conditioned where we live, like how we were brought up the older system? Yeah, like, because I mean, you especially growing up in the Midwest, even having lived in Los Angeles, which is far more diverse for like, almost a decade now. Like it’s still so easy for me to think that like Eurocentric features are like the most attractive features and I don’t even necessarily think that’s true, but but even in like, yes, we have more diversity in terms of like our media and entertainment and like, advertising and stuff, but even then, like

Unknown Speaker 35:00
Those melanated people still have very Eurocentric features. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you, Carrie, welcome. And what about for you fun? You talked about the subtlety you were you were getting into the subtlety of energetics when we were aware of energy in, in leadership or even interacting and understanding, like when we do harm. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:27
I’m just coming out of a five day retreat during work around the orgasmic arc, which is this is the way that energy moves in a conversation, you know, in, in a movement experience in lovemaking, right, like, the foundation of that is safety. And that’s what differentiates performative sacks or performative, you know, connection is like, when we’re actually really dropped into ourselves, that creates safety for the other person to express authentically, and vice versa. So I think a lot about how

Unknown Speaker 36:09
the level of

Unknown Speaker 36:12
safety in a container is dependent on the level attunement and the ability to track so like, I know,

Unknown Speaker 36:20
I have this experience that you had, I was in the same community and had an experience and you know, it was like

Unknown Speaker 36:30
a lingam massage works out workshop on Zoom. And I got a direct message from a male a talk about a participant saying, Do you want to energetically like guide my hand and lingo massage.

Unknown Speaker 36:42
And I was like, Whoa, I’ve never met this person I don’t like, and there was no container set, you know, around that. And there was, like, my, my video was off the whole time. So that was just only based on dislike my name, and my doing picture. So there was no attunement, right? It was like this person, just acting from an impulse to get something.

Unknown Speaker 37:14
And I was actually like, there with my partner, like I wouldn’t, you know, just wasn’t in that space. And, you know, the person who was organizing and facilitating this, like, essentially just gave lip service around, I talked to that person.

Unknown Speaker 37:29
And so I think a lot about how we’re conditioned to, like, we don’t feel safe in our own bodies, our caregivers, mostly have ton generations of trauma,

Unknown Speaker 37:41
that didn’t imprint that to us, like, in a way that when we’re not feeling safe from the world, we just perpetuate that, because then we can’t actually, if we’re not safe in our own bodies, we can’t connect to the tune to another, right. And so one of the edgier things of this five day workshop, where, I mean, I’ve known these humans, for 10 of us, like, for months doing work around safety, building that foundation, embodying that, and when we all came together and had that

Unknown Speaker 38:14
there was a certain point, we were doing body work on each other. Where

Unknown Speaker 38:22

Unknown Speaker 38:23
it was a it was a almost a trance flow state of knowing it was, you know, guiding people through cathartic releases through moving energy, you know, into the whole arc. And I, like I knew exactly what they needed to hear. And I didn’t have to ask consent, like, did happen this morning with my roommate, she started crying. And like, I just knew she like I just went over and help. And I think that we get really rigid about boundaries to there’s like, the polarity of like,

Unknown Speaker 39:00
we need protocols to the extent that we’re in attunement, and then there’s a there’s a certain place where we get to actually flow dynamically.

Unknown Speaker 39:11
I there was a beautiful essay on decolonizing change. And

Unknown Speaker 39:17
it was in essence, like, that’s all arisen from a complete lack of attunement, these protocols and container setting, right? And if we actually, like, really deeply received in safety together, like we would know where the energy needed to go, it’s I’m just in this dance. It’s like, it’s threatening to my ego. I’m like, oh, but what if someone who hears this, like that they don’t necessarily need consent, if they can feel it could take that as, you know, an invitation to do harm. Right? And that’s where integrity and safety within the self comes in. So it’s like a very emergent thing I’m in now, like it was a new capacity. Yeah, like

Unknown Speaker 40:00
yield, what the invitation was and wasn’t, like, adjust my energy and action accordingly. Yes. So it’s in that only and I can see like, I can see how, how listeners might be like, Oh, but we need the protocols. And I agree, we need them to the extent that we’re tuned in and your share phone as reminding me of an exercise I did in an energy class that I was in with my, with my teacher, and where we were, like, we were standing apart from one another, and we had to, like, take steps forward, only when we felt the person was inviting us. And they were inviting us just by standing there. And we would step forward, and then we would check in, and then we’d step forward again. And it was like, when we really tuned in, it was all consensual, but it was happening energetically, and it was happening in silence, and we needed to really SLOW THE FUCK DOWN, in order to be able to feel in that deeply. And the truth is, is that we,

Unknown Speaker 41:03
we don’t tend to slow down that slowly, right? That much to be able to really feel and sort of look into a person’s eyes. And, and notice, like, the subtle, the subtle signs of fear or the right when the when the body sort of pulls back a little bit, you know, body language and yeah, so that is

Unknown Speaker 41:27
and that goes back to carrying what you shared around, around kink and around like the, like leadership and follower and being able to, like the leader has to be like inside of the follower. They have to be so in inside their animal bodies to be able to sort of track what is happening. Where’s desire? Where’s need? Where’s nervous system? What’s happening inside of them? Yeah, this is why very rarely done.

Unknown Speaker 42:02
A lot of work customizability it’s a lot of work. I have enough responsibility in my personal life. I’m gonna give that up later. No, but I but again, right, this is where the deep the internal decolonization work comes in? Well, this is where the awareness of

Unknown Speaker 42:19
how you move and how you’re treated in the world comes in? Because like I Yes, yes, fauda and Isha to be energetics. And also, I feel like,

Unknown Speaker 42:31
currently, like the energetics have kind of taken over this, the more like strategic logistical way of being, and we really need both because you cannot create safety when there’s no container. And if you’re not aware of, like your privilege in the world, you’re not necessarily going to see like that, you know, your melanated partner might be people pleasing, or might not want to do but also like, like, I feel like we always have to be aware of these power dynamics. In the world. I mean, even from, you know, as a coach, if I’m servicing, you know, as this white male, there’s a power dynamic there is there’s multiple power dynamics, right, because on some level,

Unknown Speaker 43:23
you know, my sis hat, white male client will have power over me in some ways, because of the privilege that he holds in the world. And I also hold power, because I’m his coach, right, like, so you have to be aware of all of those multiple power dynamics in these relationships, again, whether it’s kink, or whatever else you’re doing, but yeah, you do have to be aware and in that, and decolonize, the leadership

Unknown Speaker 43:50
and decolonizing, right, because it’s like an ongoing process. Yeah. You know, like, I think a lot of a lot of what happens in spiritual communities. My observation, and this is not new information. But there’s a lot of bypassing that happens was like, oh, no, I’m done with my work. I’ve, I’m finished, I’ve ascended, you know, and there isn’t sort of that ongoing examination of how ego is showing up. And that’s like it. That’s precisely when the ego wants to show up. And it’s like, oh, yeah, I’m done. I’m done with my work. And it’s like, no, it’s ongoing. I’m constantly opening to more of myself, I’m constantly recognizing where I’ve, like, made missteps and where I’ve, you know,

Unknown Speaker 44:35
yeah, where I can go back, go back and do better and show up in ways that are more truthful or more in integrity and in alignment with who I say I be, you know, yeah, so that is that is definitely ongoing work.

Unknown Speaker 44:50

Unknown Speaker 44:53
Well, any final thoughts before we end today?

Unknown Speaker 44:58
Anything else like burning

Unknown Speaker 45:00
I read something recently. And if I remember who it is, I’ll send it over to you for For show notes. But this person wrote, spirituality is being is the experience of being human. And then I think I might have added on and the experience of being human is all of it, right? Like all of these aspects of ourselves that we’ve been talking about. And so, yeah, just when you were talking about how, like, you know, there’s people in the spiritual world who say, like, I’ve ascended or I’m healed, or you know, I’ve finished, that’s really like, I think coming back to the thing of spirituality is really the human existence and the human existence is making mistakes and fucking up and being imperfect. Yes, absolutely. The messy being in the mess. Yeah. Yeah. And having to pick up and, and do the repair work, I think, I think like forgiveness, forgiveness of self and other people and grieving losses, and all of that is like, ah, that is the richness of being human and being in our emotions and being able to express them and share them. That is like, yeah, that is where all the richness is. Yeah. Yeah. My mentor, one of my mentors, Susanna Barca. Taki has said, grief is an act of resistance. And that’s just so potent for me. Yeah, yeah. Especially when I think about, like ancestors and how many were not able to grieve? Right? It was just kind of like, No, we need to keep going. It was survival based. And grieving is sort of like this, this privilege that we have now, where we are more emotionally literate and fluent. And it’s like, oh, yeah, we’re doing we’re doing grief work way back into the generations and forward. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 46:47
How about you find any, any final thoughts, any sort of like, thing that is, like pressing to share?

Unknown Speaker 46:55
Yeah, I just want to follow on thread around grief and the messiness of being human right to like, to really be able to, to attune and feel like, the impact that we have when we do mess up, right. And like, be able to hold the multiple perspectives of like, this is exactly what needs to happen on some level, because it’s happening and like, wow, the ways that humans are doing harm to each other, and me being part of that, right, like, so tenderizing.

Unknown Speaker 47:32
And it really is what cooks the soul, right. And the critical path is like to be willing to be in that, that space of like, dissolution, and like, you know, the so much of the victim, the Drama Triangle, right? It’s like, we just think things all around that. And what brings people into the empowerment, dynamics of relating is taking personal responsibility. And I think that’s really what I keep coming back to is like, can I take complete responsibility for my actions and my impact? Moment by moment, even when that means there’s no comfortable reveal, right? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 48:13
Commit to that, and then there’s going to be grief, there’s going to be discomfort, but it also cracks my heart open, which is like, an exquisite thing that allows me to actually be connected to others. Like, we get so siloed if we’re not really, you know, I think it’s, it’s, it’s actually a beautiful thing. We call it work, right. And it is, in a way, but it’s also like a profoundly magical happening, that, like, allows us to really have compassion for the human experience when we play all the different roles on the triangle a certain point where like,

Unknown Speaker 48:49
I’m responsible

Unknown Speaker 48:52
with others in that responsibility that like, yes, we have all of our, all of our trauma and programming and conditioning, in a certain way. We didn’t choose that. But like, we’re awake now. Right? We’re here, and just as much as we can just own it. That I think is what creates a leader and creates safety. It’s like, yeah, there’s going to be that process that will never end. Like we’re just in it together. Right.

Unknown Speaker 49:20
Like, like ourselves to learn and receive from another’s journey. You know, so I’m just really grateful for this conversation because it really, really anchored me and like, okay, yeah, let’s do the thing. Mm hmm. Yeah, I love that. I call it radical self ownership. You know, and, and I want to go back to what you said at the beginning founder that was just like that just hit me in my chest of like, the purpose of all relationship is growth, and the benefit is love. And it’s not just the love that we’re able to give but the love that we’re able to, like, offer ourselves that compassion of like, yeah, I fucked up and it’s okay.

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Unknown Speaker 50:02
we got to forgive ourselves like okay, let’s let’s do over let’s have a do over you know and be even get to the point where we can be playful with it and just make room for it all to be here.

Unknown Speaker 50:14
Yeah, thank you so much for gathering today. Thank you Isha. Thank you for having us.

Unknown Speaker 50:23
Thank you for listening to today’s episode. Remember to hit the subscribe button to get notified of new episodes dropping on the new and full moons of each month. And if you haven’t already, leave us a five star review on iTunes to make sure that everyone who needs this transmission receives it. Until the next episode I’m sending you fierce, fierce love.