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Isha 0:01
Welcome to Devotional Anarchy, a podcast about intimacy, attachment, sexuality, spirituality, self expression and other relational themes from a trauma responsive somatic energetic lens, and with a queer polyamorous twist, of course. I’m Isha Vela trauma psychologist somatic intimacy Alchemist shadow doula love at our guest, intuitive channel and sovereignty coach. You’re here because you understand that integrating intimacy wounds build safety and trust within your body. And that safety and trust is what allows you to fully own and direct your erotic and creative lifeforce, in your relationships in

Unknown Speaker 0:36
purposeful work. My intention is for the conversations and tools shared in this podcast, to light a fire in your heart and under your magical ass while supporting you on your kinky human journey to owning all of yourself. Hey, there, I’m really excited to share this conversation with you. Because I’ve been alluding in previous episodes, what a challenging year this has been for myself and for many other people, both in business and just generally in life. And I decided to invite Lisa Koosman leadership expert and trauma educator to talk about being okay with not being okay. And I invited her based on an epic Facebook post she wrote several weeks ago where she talked about how terrorized many leaders were of sharing our struggles, especially when we’re holding space for other people. And there’s so in this episode in this conversation, we get into paving the path to New Wave leadership, which is what Lisa likes to call it, by leading with our messy humanity without anything needing to be fixed or changed or there being anything wrong with us. And we get super fucking honest about what happens when our traumas get reactivated. When mental health issues resurface and ego deaths force us to reorient to the world in new ways. So Lisa is the host of the New Wave leadership podcast. She’s the founder of ready a trauma sensitive Certification Program, which is a business coach to entrepreneurs with a complex history of trauma. So she has a membership community called the New Wave Leadership Coalition that she’s inviting people into for nine $9 a month, you can receive confidential consultation support, and all of the links to how to connect with her how to get into her membership community is included in the show notes. Alright, so let’s get into it. Hi, Lisa, I

Isha Vela 2:34
am so happy that we’re finally sitting down to this conversation. Because I know that you keep it real. And I’ve just from from just having recently been introduced to you through a mutual friend. I’m just like, I love you. You’re amazing. You say the truth, the things.

Unknown Speaker 2:54
Oh my god, thank you. I do. And I really appreciate it when other people do too, because I’m so sick of the pretending. And it’s interesting to notice, like the ways in which I also was pretending this year is the way I’ve been describing it as unraveled me from the inside out. And there are new awarenesses that I have around. I’ve been showing up and so I’m 100% here for just that. Like, let’s just say it let’s call it exactly as it is. Yeah. Bolstered around, no pretending necessary because we’re just all human and it’s the struggle is really real. And we think that there’s something wrong with us when we feel some kind of way and we look to the left and we look to the right and we look up but we look down and we like look all around because we’re disoriented and we’re like, What the fuck is it only me know it’s just everybody is pretending that it’s not them too and it’s so destructive to humanity and blokes healing in a billion ways and I’m just so I’m but it’s scary.

Unknown Speaker 4:04
Scary. I’ve talked about it as a sort of like subtle shaming and gaslighting of people like when we show up and sort of this like I have it together Yes, I have healed or I’m done with my process or I don’t struggle or I don’t suffer then we’re really we’re really gaslighting people we’re lying to them essentially. Yeah, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 4:26
we’re like big big that look like small lies.

Unknown Speaker 4:31
Yeah. And and like I have like when when people lie to me like it’s a massive trigger and so when I feel any of that, I’m just like, I want to fucking burn it down. I want to tear down I mean, like this is mostly this is most of this is bullshit. And a lot of my writing recently has been around like this is bullshit. This is bullshit because I just want to like clear the decks I want to like get up on the on the like very neatly decorated and set table and just kick off on the plane. It’s been like,

Unknown Speaker 5:02
it’s I love that that’s your approach. My approach has been like, alright, bitches all go first. I’m not okay. This has been a really fucking hard year. My business is like in the shitter. Everything feels bad. I’m having panic attacks. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you’re not gonna find I’ll just I’ll go first. I guess that’s what being a leader is and

Unknown Speaker 5:28
Right, right. Yes, yes. And you posted something on on Facebook that just so inspired me and inspire me to invite you. And it was about this year, the journey of this year, and I had I was writing that same post, I was like, preparing it in my in my brain. And in my body. I was like, getting ready, just just sort of say the thing. And you You went first?

Unknown Speaker 5:56
Do you remember what was in there? Because, yeah, you would have this in different ways. And I’m just so curious, what resonated because, because honestly, like, I’ll go ahead and just admit, like, I need to know that that level of vulnerability mattered. And in what kind of way because it gives me courage to keep doing it.

Unknown Speaker 6:12
Absolutely. It did fucking matter. Because what resonated with me is that you said something about the tools that you were used to using stopped working. And I was like, Oh, my God, that fucking happened to me this year. Like all the tools that I was teaching other people went out the fucking window, and like, thank goodness that I’m scrappy as fuck, because I went to get other tools. That did work. But it was like it was took work and effort. And every morning for me, it felt like I had, you know, like the kitchen drawer, like the messy kitchen drawer. That one drawer that’s like a fucking mess in your kitchen. That’s what my brain felt like, every morning. I had to clean out that kitchen drawer every morning to be able to show up in my fuck yes. And I found my fuck yes. But it was a cleaning process. And I had to take out more time out of my day to process all that. And then to rest from processing all that shit.

Unknown Speaker 7:11
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, you know, I finally got to the point where I would wake up, and I would just lay in bed. And I just let myself just lay there and not get up. Like, just avoid the day. Like, yeah, I can’t do it. I don’t, I don’t even want to do it. Right. Like that part of me, though, like resistant teenager. And then, of course, I’m like, I want to show up. And I love the work that I do. And I built a beautiful life. And even though things have been really, really, really hard. I was like, Okay, well, what’s like, what’s the one thing? Can I just do? Like one thing? Maybe I’ll shower? You know what I mean? Like, sometimes we actually get to the point two where things are so very hard. Where we don’t have energy or capacity. I’ve had such an exacerbation of my PTSD symptoms this year. Yeah, that, um, my system was so activated. And I was trying the things and they weren’t working. And it just finally came down to like, Okay, well, I only have this level of concentration, I have a list of things to do. I’ve things that I care about. But how do I honor where I’m at, which is I can’t concentrate. And I’m going to create harm by making myself sit here and do this. Exactly, exactly. And also honor the things that I really did want to deliver the ways in which I did want to show up. Yeah, like this year, I had to make a really concrete choice of, I am not going to give my power away to the fact that this is where I’m at. So I’m not going to stop and I’m not going to hide. And I’m not going to become powerless, because this is what I’m moving through. But I’m going to figure out how the fuck to do it when I don’t have much to resource right now. Like in the past. I’ve always just like not shown up, shut down. I’m stopped being in my leadership. Yeah. And this year, I’m like, No, this thing isn’t gonna get me like that. Not this year. As a whole journey.

Unknown Speaker 9:29
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I relied on a lot of, you know, friendship supports this year. I lost a lot of friends this year also, which was part of my difficulty.

Isha Vela 9:42
My personal relationships, you know, personal relationships. I’m all about intimacy and relationships, and I just lost a lot of connections that were important to me. And that was a lot like a big grief process. And one thing that that rattled me more than anything like on the identity level was that, you know, my gender change this year as I, as I was saying to you, before we were started recording, I was like, I’ve been really like my Crone, I’ve been sort of moving from mother archetype into Crone. And in that process, like my gender and gender identity changed, and I could No, I no longer relate to the word woman like, like, that whole thing is just sort of, like lost on me. All of the policy base stuff you see out in the coaching world, that’s just like, I can’t relate to it anymore. And so then it was kind of like, where the fuck am I like, really? That sort of, like, questions started coming in for me, like, I don’t know where I am anymore. You know, or where I fit into this into this coaching space?

Unknown Speaker 10:51
Yeah, I’m getting I’m getting chills. That’s, that’s a lot when we have identity shifts at that level. The way I I’m relating to that is, like, there’s ways in which we know ourselves. And when that changes, which is a natural evolution of humanity, or self discovery or healing. Yeah, even aging, like it’s all of it. Yeah. Mine was realizing that maybe this is an age thing for me, but I thought I had myself figured out, right? Yeah, like I thought I had, I just moved through a lot of ego death. Yeah, of like, okay, I’m gonna just release and relinquish everything that I thought I knew to be true about myself, then I’m just gonna deal with what’s here right now. And I’m glad that I had created some tools so that I could do that. But when our identity shifts, then we need to reevaluate every literally everything about how we orient in the world. And I left it I was raised in a religious cult. And I left that group when I was I think I was 20. I was 25. And I remember, like, I didn’t know what clothes to wear. This was a very strict religious system. So I didn’t know how to like dress myself. I didn’t know how to do my hair. I didn’t know what I like, all the sudden jewelry was an option for me. I didn’t know what to believe. I didn’t know where I belonged. And then it was like when you have a structure of self and so you’re saying your identity around. Like going from she heard today them I see your pronouns here. That requires a reevaluation of absolutely everything. And it is a very discombobulating experience to go through. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. I didn’t realize that was a part of your here.

Isha Vela 13:06
Yeah. How was this year? And it was I mean, it had, you know, it was always fluid. But I had it had never, it was almost like, like a peripheral awareness. And all of a sudden, it’s right here. And you’re like, oh, whoa, I didn’t I didn’t see you there. You were back here. And we were happily tucked away back there and no longer like, did you want to remain back there. You wanted to sort of face face forward or be front facing? So yeah, and I think that it’s really like, you know, something else that you wrote in that post that really,

Unknown Speaker 13:41
it really hit me was that the terror that we as leaders feel to share? When we’re struggling? Because we fear losing credibility, we fear losing respect, we fear losing followers or whatever fucking means to like not have people respect you or support you. I don’t know. But I just think it’s so important to Yeah, to lead with our humanity to just to share what’s actually going on and to still like, you know, you don’t have to spill your guts out into the world while you’re in the process of it. But but there is like, there is a responsibility to be congruent. There’s a responsibility to be there coherent in the sense that there’s a there’s a match between what’s happening here in the front and what’s happening here in the back. Because when when we hide, it’s exhausting. That’s I think that’s where we really, like you said we hurt ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 14:50
Yeah, well, I like to use the word congruency because I’ve been trained to name that and I didn’t realize that that was the word I was searching for in my brain. Like, you know, I hosted an event recently called the I basically was like, I’m not okay. And you probably aren’t either. So let’s just say it was a spiritual retreat day like, it’s okay to not be okay. And I had planned this event, I had known that I was going to do this event for months, had the date set, and it just coming and coming. And meaning I knew I was going to do a virtual retreat day on this date, as a way to help people kind of connect with me because I was going to invite people to join my membership program, because it’s an offering within the membership program. Yeah. So keeps coming. And it keeps coming. And I just, I’m literally like, my team is like, Lisa, you’ve got to figure out what you’re going to do we have to start marketing it like, there is a certain amount of time where like, people need to know to come. Yeah, I know. No, no, no, no, no, no. And I couldn’t, I couldn’t decide what to do. Because there wasn’t anything else other than naming. I’m not okay. And you’re probably not either. And let’s just talk about how we move through, which has been what I have been practicing all year. Yeah. But haven’t been publicly talking about up until recently. Because it was like, it was so much. Yeah. And I didn’t realize that I was practicing moving through like being in it. Yes, in the past, I was like, oh, let’s just go ahead and go handle that over here. And then we’ll come over here. And then we’ll be this leader that’s got things to share and things, you know, like things to offer. Yeah, but I just didn’t have that. And I was like, I will be out of integrity if I try to do any other bullshit on this day. And I also put in my marketing, like, I don’t have the answer for you. Like, this is not the, this is how you do it. I’m just gonna tell you, the things that have I’ve been challenged with and what I’ve practiced and tried. And let’s also just normalize the fact that there are really good reasons why we’re not okay. Yeah, there’s a solid, important reasons. It’s not because there’s something wrong with us. It’s not because we’ve had previous life experiences. It’s not because we’re broken, it’s because systems are fucked up. Our humanity is not being acknowledged. And leaders don’t. I’m so pissed about it. Like, we don’t get to honor our humanity simultaneously, while we show up for other people. Like, why does it have to be so scary? It is terrifying. It’s really scary. And I think a big part of that. And this has been true for me, so everybody can evaluate for themselves when I say this. But it’s not been safe for me. To honor my humanity and to show my humanity as a leader. And okay, I wanted to say that. Let me see. Curious about that. Yeah. So, um, this is what I mean. Not being okay. has not been safe for me. Okay. So being it took me a very long time to get to the point where I was able to acknowledge to myself that I was actually not okay. Okay, because not being okay has been very unsafe. Got it. A lot of the time in my life. Yes. So I was pushed. I was. I was just holding that off. And I think that that’s why my panic attack started. I haven’t had panic attacks since I was in my 20s. And all of a sudden, I’m like, Shit, I’m having like three big ones a week. I’m like, Oh, my God, but I, I think my system was like, Dude, you’re not okay. You’re not okay, Hulu. We’re just gonna,

Unknown Speaker 18:52
and then press the button.

Unknown Speaker 18:55
Well, not knock and poke and then we’ll just knock your door down.

Unknown Speaker 19:01
Here’s the big alarm bell for you, Lisa.

Unknown Speaker 19:04
And I teach this stuff. Right, right, right. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 19:09
Yeah. Yeah, that’s it’s just so powerful to hear you say it hasn’t felt safe. It hasn’t felt safe for me to be not okay. Right. That’s yeah.

Unknown Speaker 19:23
What hasn’t been? Yeah. I’ve been working with that with my therapist this year. Thank God, I found an amazing therapist took seven months to get there and I had to move. I had to fire two people. The thing that’s interesting is like, I’m really educated. I’ve worked in mental health. I know myself really well. Like I need a really qualified person. There’s not a lot of really qualified professionals out there and when you know what you’re doing, and you know what you need, and that person doesn’t show up. It was like, wow, that and then that was really vulnerable. Like hello, I need your support, please. Um, Oh, you suck. Okay, I, let’s try again. And again, I don’t therapists get to be human. And what I mean with you suck is this isn’t a match. And I need to find the right match for me. Right? Yeah. claim that. Um, so, yeah, it’s been really interesting to notice that there have been some things shifted in my life where I am now in a safe enough place in my life where I can confront some things and grieve some things and acknowledge some things that I haven’t before in my life been able to do, in like, really big ways that it makes me emotional, just thinking about oh, oh,

Isha Vela 20:52
yeah, yeah, I really agree that there was something about this year, like, my divorce finalized in November. I did like a big Ayahuasca journey in January, because I knew that I was holding a lot from that whole process, and that I and I did do a lot of release work in January. And then I feel like that opened me up to all of this other all of the other shit that I hadn’t felt ready to dive into was now available for me to dive into. And that was the, the kitchen, right, the kitchen

Unknown Speaker 21:37
drawer that was just full of junk that I had to clear out, you know, so Yeah, and like, when you put it in the context of the pandemic, as well, like, all of what we held in 2020, and 2021. Just kind of, like when things started to open up, like, in March and April, you felt there was this kind of like, Ah, right, and that’s when the nervous system goes, All right. Now we can, you know, now we can do all this. And right, and I, and astrologically, to you know, there was I feel like we were all like in the shadow portal where, like, the stuff that I was dealing with, like pure, like, deep dark shadow work, you know, like, all like, dissolving all of my smallness. Like that’s sort of on the, on the, the minimal end of things. And sort of the big stuff is like the ancestral, like really deep. The part of me that wants to push people away, that part of me that’s just like, ah, get away from me, like, just really, like, aggressive. You know, and then and then having to find my heart. Like, find my way back into my heart and into like, my service.

Isha Vela 22:53
And how I want to lead and leading with the truth of that, and using that, right, the gnarly shit in service. Right, I think I think that is the balance of like, that’s leadership for me right now is like, let’s talk about the gnarly stuff. And let me talk about it in a way that supports you. Right, yeah. You know? Yeah. And I mean, maybe we can talk a little bit about the fear that we have as leaders of, of not being okay. of losing respect, because I feel like that is sort of where we, where we get stuck. And yeah.

Unknown Speaker 23:40
Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this so much. There’s so many things that come up, like it’s risky. And I think as some people who either identify as women or have identified as women or in bodies that have uteruses. We have been conditioned for, I mean, there’s so much socialization and conditioning and like generations of legitimate consequences to us, showing our emotions and holding our ground and telling the truth and doing things differently, or I don’t know, it’s just so a part of it is like, in us, right? And then there’s the very real thing that happens, like one of the things that I’ve been noticing for a couple years because I try to be so very transparent is is that like when I go to try to share something about my not okayness, whether it’s current or past or whatever, or people jump in and try to fix and save me? Yeah. And I’m just like, I don’t need your help. I know how to, like source myself. Like this is this, I’m showing you my humanity because I believe that we need to share our humanity so that we recognize that these things are normal. Yeah. And so like, that’s an icky thing to manage and to deal with, or the like the message I was thinking about the other day of like that. Well, of course, people don’t respect you anymore, because you blah, blah, blah, so it’s your fault. Well, that also feels like, Well, if x y&z happened to you, and then the blame was placed on you rather than the abuser? Yeah, it’s like, like, there’s some, I’m spinning off from what you said a little bit. But it’s like, there’s also this intersection of like trauma response that comes in not being okay, and sharing that we’re not okay. Because we’re also blamed that we’re the reason why we’re not okay. Yeah, yeah. Right. And so there’s, yeah, of course, there’s a lot of fear in there. But that fear is really fucking tricky to pin down. It’s like, what’s I’ve been thinking a lot about threat perception. Like, what’s the perceived threat here? Right? Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, we’re afraid we’re not going to make money. And we’re afraid that people will respect us. And we’re afraid that our expertise will be questioned, or blah, blah, blah. But we’re all just seeking connection. And I think the world now is really craving humanity, like, honestly, around humanity. Yeah. I don’t know if that’s, that’s not a linear response.

Unknown Speaker 26:39
No, doesn’t matter, because I hear what you’re saying. I hear the like, we’re so hungry for truth. We’re so hungry for truth. We’ve been like, bullshitted for such a long time. And we’re so fucking over it. You know, I feel like what people are really craving is isn’t an accurate mirror. Right is a is a real reflection. You know, when I think about, you know, parents raising babies, and the attunement process that happens there and having parents reflect the baby’s reality back to them, like when the baby falls and gets hurt. And instead of the parents being like, you’re okay, nothing happened, right, which is a lie, which is gaslighting, right? In a micro level. We, we we want that reflection of like, yes, you’re hurt. It hurts. Right? Oh, my gosh. Let me hold you Are you okay? Right. And, and of course, like supporting the resilience of this baby. Like, you’re gonna be okay. And you’re hurt right now. Yes. Cry? We are we are as adults, we’re wanting some mirror. Right in the leadership. I feel like we have a responsibility to be an accurate mirror. Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m hearing you say? I just wanted to say it in a different way.

Unknown Speaker 28:01
Yeah. And I feel like that’s connecting some dots in my brain as well. And it’s like, I think the fear is, is that up until now, when we’ve been transparent about or not okayness that’s then meet needs fixed.

Unknown Speaker 28:17
Yes, yes. There’s a mindset issue. You haven’t healed?

Unknown Speaker 28:21
Right? Like there’s something wrong with us. There needs to be something fixed if you’re not okay. Yeah. And the reality is, is that it’s very human normal experience not to be okay. And it doesn’t matter what position you’re in what title you hold, where you’re at, in your life, what your abilities you have, we are not okay. And sometimes we’re really not okay. And that doesn’t need fixed. It needs witnessed. It needs to be honored. It needs space to move and breathe and transmute into power into inspiration into just being an energetic place. Like we we also don’t have to take the non okayness and make it into something good. Right? Like yeah, right, exactly. do that either. But but that’s a part that is scary is that when there’s not very many people even telling the truth to begin with, and that those of us who want and crave that we also don’t want fixed like, it’s not something that needs solved. Yeah. Now suffering doesn’t feel good. Like it’s one thing I realized this year as that was finally why I’m an Aries. So I’m, I’m a little stubborn. Oh. And all of a sudden, I was like, Oh my God, I am suffering. I do not deserve to suffer like this. And then I like I took a new approach to how do I now get myself supported to reduce risk? minimize suffering, as much as possible? Yeah. Yeah. Like during that period of time. I like I applied for a job. I totally considered walking away from my business. Yeah, I’m really glad I did. didn’t get the job. Because that wasn’t, that wasn’t actually the thing that was gonna reduce my suffering. I was just like, look, check my ego at the door. I don’t care anymore. Whatever it takes. I don’t I don’t need to suffer. I don’t have to do this. Right? Throw me a bone universe. Oh, yeah,

Isha Vela 30:21
yeah, there’s the suffering piece. Like, I hear you. Like, I feel like what I’m, what I feel like I’m good at is like experiencing the pain. Like when it comes to the voices in my head that tells me like, Oh, you’re nobody or you’re a fake? I don’t like, I don’t really? I don’t play that record. I’m just kind of like, no, no, thank you. Right? I’m really good at that part. But there was there was a lot of pain, there was just a lot of like, there was just a lot of shit to move. And like, I could feel like, I was observing those parts of myself. I wasn’t believing my thoughts. But fuck did my was my mind going so fast. And I was like, Wow, I’m tired of listening to you. I’m tired of like, observing you. I’m tired of just like, just like hanging out with you. That’s that’s sort of where my, my heaviness was coming from of like, this is so much to process like, I’m just observing, and I’m freaking observing a lot. A lot is happening there. You know, whereas before, it would be like, Oh, occasional come in. Yeah. But it was like, Don’t do you know,

Unknown Speaker 31:40
when when it’s that much, you can’t process that in real time without external support. Like, it’s just yeah, I don’t think that it’s humanly possible. If anyone listens to this and thinks that it is, or has that, like, please look me up. But I really appreciate what you’re talking about. Because that was an interesting place for me to be in this year also being like, I was also like, in observer mode of like, noticing. It wasn’t lost on me. I was aware. Yeah, right. But I also wasn’t successfully able to move myself to a place of less suffering, and feeling more connected to my true essence, most of the time, and then it got worse and worse. And it was almost like, the observation kept going, like a higher level. Yeah. And then I was like, but I was still so far away. And I don’t mean disassociation, I can tell you can you know what I mean? Yes, um, and I’m so very glad that I was able to get connected with my amazing trauma therapist, because she has been able to ask me questions, or reflect things back to me that I was aware of, but I needed something else than what was already happening. You know, we end up with these patterns in our brain or patterns or behavior. And we’re like, we try these things. Right. And I’d already burnt myself out on things that weren’t working. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great indication of when you need some kind of external support. Yeah, nothing’s working. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 33:26
All the tools and strategies are null and obsolete. Yeah, so you were able to find new ways?

Unknown Speaker 33:36
Um, well, honestly, I needed to start medication for anxiety. my nervous system was just shot. And you know, even though I’m really well versed on different ways to regulate, they weren’t like my nervous system was just it was too shot. I had too much too much going on. And so and I’m only a couple of weeks now, utilizing anxiety medication. I haven’t needed meds for man 10 years. Mm hmm. Which is also something I like talk about like some ego stuff and then here’s another thing it’s like, it’s okay for you to need medication. For you to not be okay, but not for me. It’s okay for you to make mistakes, but not for me. So again, I thought I had moved past this is another stuff like things that I thought I had already moved through as elitist. That where I was like, Oh, this is still there, huh? Okay, well, I thought I knew myself where I thought I was aware enough to not like it anyway. So um, you know, I think that’s where the panic attacks knocking on the door. I just was like, I don’t have to suffer like this and it had an impact my ability to function and show up in my business has, like dramatically impacted what I have been able to to do and create now, it’s been a hard year, as far as sales have gone for a lot of people, me included, I think some people are killing it or they’re lying. I can’t tell. So, so that was that was a really important thing for me. And then the other thing has been is that has been allowed me to get better sleep. So my subconscious is just like, on overdrive trying to keep me safe with Wow, yeah, all sorts of stuff. Like last night in the middle of the night. This has been happening a couple of times. I woke up in the middle of the night, and I was certain I could hear people whispering in my house, like I am, this is twice in the last week. And it’s just a sound that my brain is not it turned out my dog was snoring. Yeah, that was the sound, right? But I woke up heart racing like an intruder was in my house. And so it’s just been really interesting to notice, like, and I took a I also was like, Okay, well, intellectual information, provide psychological safety. And this is always helpful. And I teach this stuff. And I’m like in it. And so I took a certification program to be get more credentials around understanding trauma, and just being in the class. Yeah. And listening to the information. I was absorbing it in a different kind of way. And so just even, I don’t know, I just found I found that to be really interesting and intriguing. It doesn’t fix anything, but at least, like one of the things in his training that really what seemed profound for me, because the big, I’m always like, How the fuck did this happen? Right? There’s a part of me as a trauma survivor, I need to know how and why things happen. So that then I can know how to care for myself and advocate for myself and be okay, as much as I can be. Okay. Yeah. And they kind of talked about how, when we lose connection with hope,

Unknown Speaker 37:09
yes. So I’m just going to turn on the light here, because I’m sure.

Unknown Speaker 37:14
Um, and because of the way that things had sequenced in my life, there wasn’t a corner of my life where I felt really connected to help. Yeah, and that was, that’s hard. That is hard. And that, that kept me from being able to access even the parts of myself that feel like me. Like it is, it’s been weird to be in my body and moving around. And knowing I’m a joyful, happy, excitable person who likes to solve problems and gets curious and has ideas and is energetic and tinned like that not be. I couldn’t access that part. Yeah, but it’s the hope piece. Yeah, there was a big piece around hope.

Unknown Speaker 38:17
I noticed that too, this year that, you know, I don’t go into hopeless places, like, like you said, it has, you know, when I felt depressed, it was like, 10 years ago, when I was really physically ill when I was really like, in the, in the midst of battling my chronic illness. And that part of my resilience is just really, it’s not positivity, it is just like,

Isha Vela 38:45
going with the flow, right? Like something happens. And I was like, okay, pivot shift, right, like, just kind of like, move with what’s coming. And I found myself this year now, I was with the, with the next partner when it was happening. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I’m noticing all of these really, dark thoughts are like existential wobbles is what I call them, like, really thoughts about a lot of death and dying a lot of like, hey, if I, you know, I’m kind of like, I’m okay with, like, leaving the earth pretty soon, because it’s kind of hard, like, and it would show up kind of in this very benign way, like, yeah, I could go, like it would be okay. And I was just like, No, because I fucking love life. Like, I love being here. And I love experiencing things. And when those places would come in, I was like, hmm, that hasn’t been around for a long time. You know, is

Unknown Speaker 39:39
that yeah, right. Um, same for me. I spent nine months like, what’s the point of being alive? Like, I don’t really understand. Yeah, you know, like, why would I? Why would I keep being alive? Like, what’s the point? Yeah, um, and It fell I love. I love the way you describe that because I have been suicidal in the past. Yeah, depressed and suicidal in the past. And that was a part of what was confusing for me this year. I’m like, I am not depressed. Right? Yeah. So love my work and I get engaged. Like, I can’t focus. I can’t. I’m having pimp like these other things that were happening, right. And so, and then I was having this extent existential wobbling it for you. Part of it for me was like, Okay, well, I’m 40 now, and I’ve had issues with infertility, and I’m fully complete with my desire for motherhood anymore. And I’ve let that go. I still experienced some grief around it. But I’m actually at the point where I’m like, really excited that I don’t have kids. I don’t know how I would have managed this year if I had littles to care for like dependent littles. Yeah, holy shit. It’s already been hard enough, just me and my husband and my dog. But when in for me, there was a piece of that. It’s like, I’m not a mom. So no one will care for me. I won’t need to care for anyone. I won’t have like, building a legacy yet. Why? Right, who’s gonna care? I don’t want to be because I did. I was a social worker. I worked in geriatrics. My social work career, spent a lot of time in hospice in nursing homes. And I want to be with people I want. Like, I need connection. I need to matter, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like, I don’t know if there was this part is me and I was suffering, and I wasn’t feeling good. And it just and then the world is just, it’s awful out there. And it feels like it feels so bad. Like, the bigger picture of what’s happening in humanity right now is like, well, that’s not gonna change in my lifetime. I can effort. I can ever decree change around some of these things. But I’m just one human in one lifetime. And even though that matters, but then that was like, these are scary thoughts. And I need to be paying attention to the fact that this is happening. But then I have the self awareness of like, I don’t want to die, though. You know, what I don’t want to hear if I do.

Unknown Speaker 42:25
And I swear, Lisa, like this was this fell as I was going through it. Sorry, I just didn’t account for it getting so dark.

Unknown Speaker 42:34
No, no, it’s changed. Yeah. All right.

Unknown Speaker 42:37
But something that I was aware of that kept kept me in, that sort of kept me going, was the awareness that this was more than just me, I knew that this was collective. Like, I knew that I was, I was taking in part of like, yes, ancestry, right, there was ancestral stuff coming up. But I knew that what I was feeling was also collective. So I knew not to personalize it. And I was just, it was just fascinating to me to feel this. And then too late, like I, I didn’t know this for sure. But I sensed it was collective. And then. And then people started like, recently, like, just really since I would say, August, September, October, starting to talk about it. Because prior to that, we were all kind of like,

Isha Vela 43:32
we were just kind of like holding it and just kind of getting through and seeing like what’s gonna change this and it wasn’t changing. And then finally, we’re like, We’re fucking tired. Right? And we all just sort of came out at the same time to say it. Right? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 43:47
I think Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 43:49
And so it’s like, I think that for the for the sensitive people in the world for the deep feelers like we were experiencing that we were really like, it was more than just personal right? Yes, yes, we had you know, trauma coming up. We had our own sort of like, processes happening resurgences of of those things, but this was also like part of the collective transmutation of shadow like the collective shadow.

Unknown Speaker 44:17
And also, I feel like it was a you said transmutation. I can’t find the word that I want. But to me it is felt like a calling or a rising up of a new wave of leadership. Yes. And that’s a term I’ve been using because it feels like it was systemically we need a different way of leading. Yeah, we need new pathways of leaders and how we’re showing up because the systemic change that is required means leadership is going to have to change right, right. Traditional leadership models are connected to systems of oppression and white supremacy and all of these things. And so it’s like, there’s so yeah, and so it’s like some of us were able to get here to be more telling the truth. If people haven’t or that is not the path, I think that’s okay. But it feels like there’s a shift that’s happening. And it’s an opportunity. It’s scary, though. Because what are we doing? We are paving the path. We’re like carving we’re with the machete in the jungle has happened down the path, right? Like we’re, and we’re in it. Like, there’s no way to create the path unless we’re actually actively working on creating the path, which is also new territory, territory. I mean, I’ve talked about leadership in the past and like, make sure you have things settled before you start talking about them publicly. Well, I was wrong. I don’t know. Like, there’s something about not processing your stuff publicly, like using the public or public forum to do your healing and do your processing. Right. I still don’t think that’s a solid approach.

Unknown Speaker 46:22
Yeah, there’s a way that you those are ways that we can hold it and still share it.

Unknown Speaker 46:27
Right? Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here we are.

Isha Vela 46:35
Yes. So new wave, New Wave leadership. This is this is the conversation we’re having today about, like, leading from our humanity, leading with our truth, which is sometimes messy, right? Life is messy as fuck, right. It’s not slowing down. And we’re really having to honor the places where we are injured. The places where the places we’re tending to in ourselves, we’re having to be self responsible about, you know, the missteps, or the mistakes we make, and and cleaning them up. Like, I feel like that’s all what you’re describing, the conversation we’re having is really about the

Unknown Speaker 47:20
accountability, accountability to our humanity. Right? Isn’t that right? Like,

Unknown Speaker 47:26
yeah, yeah. Um, I like that accountability to our humanity. Because how do we honor it, if we can’t be accountable to it? And the reality is, is that we will make mistakes, and we are learning. And that’s a big part. Accountability is a big part, I believe, of being a leader who’s not contributing to creating harm. Yeah, yeah. Right. Because if we honor our humanity, well, then we make mistakes. We hurt people. Exactly. We have to go clean it up. Yeah. And then we also show that like, that’s okay. Unacceptable. And hurting people is it’s not it’s not avoidable. It is a part of the process. Yeah. But how we handle it, then when it occurs, how we re create trust and request safety. Yeah, and end up on the same page again, comes from it gets it gets messy in there. Yeah. It’s gonna be a little messy. Right? And then, what else do we have to do? We have to honor competing needs, like, there is not going to like this prioritization of certain people get to have their needs met. And like, that’s okay. I don’t know if that’s making any sense. But yeah. As leaders, we also should be able to prioritize the parts of ourselves that are messy, and, and then not, like keep showing up like so many people are, we’re not showing up because we don’t think we can do it messy, or we shouldn’t be doing it messy. And it’s also very uncomfortable to do it

Unknown Speaker 49:19
messy. Yes, it is.

Unknown Speaker 49:21
Because because we are also not learning the skills of how to have it be messy, how to be accountable for self, how to create repair, how to move through the stuff that doesn’t feel good. between humans like that’s already hard. Like, as you know, the your intimacy work that’s already hard in our personal lives. Yeah. We also don’t know how to do that in our public like professional lives, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 49:45
absolutely. Ah, Lisa, thank you so much for this conversation. This was really refreshing and I hope that, you know, for those of you listening, you’re just like, letting yourself breathe. A sigh Every belief like yes, like all of you gets to be here, all of you gets to be part of your business, all of you gets to be part of your leadership. It’s what people are craving to have affirmed within themselves. This is a way that we, you know, the way that we allow ourselves to be seen allows others to be seen. And that is, that is intimacy right there, you know, in the way that we show up. So thank you so much, Lisa.

Isha 50:29
Thank you. Such an honor. Yes. Thank you for listening to today’s episode. Remember to hit the subscribe button to get notified of new episodes dropping on the new and full moons of each month. And if you haven’t already, leave us a five star review on iTunes to make sure that everyone who needs this transmission receives it. Until the next episode, I’m sending you fierce, fierce love

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