6.4 | The Original Bank Was Us with Farron Harvey

>> Isha Vela: Welcome to Waking Up Wealthy, the podcast for visionaries and rebels who are ready to revolutionize their relationship with money and create powerful collective ripples with the money they make. I’m your host, Isha Vela, trauma psychologist, somatic practitioner, financial professional and minimalist, bringing you practical money tools, unconventional wealth perspectives, and Aquarian era business strategies to guide you in building wealth that’s aligned, ethical and empowering. Let’s wake up to the true meaning of wealth together. Because I’ve been thinking about matriarchal money systems for a while, and especially now, within this very interesting timeline we’re in, I wanted to talk about alternative economies, specifically community funding structures. This practice is formally known as a rotating savings and credit association, or Arasca for short. And it has over 200 different names that vary from country to country. In Nigeria, it’s called the Susu. In Mexico it’s called a Tanda. And in the Chinese community, it’s called the Hue. I first heard of the Susu about eight years ago from an acquaintance in the social justice community, and I found them and I invited them to share their specific version of it on the podcast. Farren Harvey is a facilitator of wealth redistribution systems and a social justice movement builder for organizations and individuals looking to grow in integrity with their mission and values. And I admire Farron so much because they’ve been in the work and doing this work for 18 years, starting from when they were a teenager. And their journey has in facilitation and movement has been shaped by having to compartmentalize their identities in certain spaces, which is why they now support people in creating, visioning, collaborating, and executing from their wholeness. And what I thought was going to be a straightforward episode on how to run and facilitate Isusu ended up being a whole different conversation that I think will surprise and delight you. And it’s about wealth distribution and equity, so you won’t be the same again after hearing this. I hope you’re ready. Farron, I’m so excited to have this conversation with you. And when I thought about doing, having this conversation about, you know, alternative economies and all the different ways that we could, you know, share money within community, you’re always the first person that came to mind. And when you came up on my Instagram feed and saw that you were teaching on this now, I was like, okay, this needs to happen right now. So thank you, thank you for being here.

>> Farren Harvey: Oh, thank you for having me. I’m excited. yeah, I’m just excited to see that there’s such an Interest in this work around, redistribution of wealth and specifically, equitable susus.

>> Isha Vela: And I would love for you to share first before we get into that, like, what has been your journey with money? Because I’ve, I’ve known you for like what, seven or eight years and you were already talking about capitalism and about, you were already doing this stuff many, many years ago. What’s been your journey? Yeah.

>> Farren Harvey: so a bit about me. I grew up, in Hartford, Connecticut and I come from, I grew up working class, poor. So my family always worked but was still poor. And so, you know, my relationship to understanding money, I think really, is influenced and shaped by my identities and where I come from, and seeing how there was just never enough money, and wanting something to be different from for me, for my family, for the people who looked like me.

>> Isha Vela: And what does that mean for you, people who look like you? Like, I want be specific about that because I feel like that’s important. Yeah.

>> Farren Harvey: You know, I am black, trans, non, binary, queer, and I was raised by like black women, my grandmother, my mom, my aunts. and so when I say black people or like people who look like me, those are the people that I’m often thinking about. black women, queer black folks, gender variant black folks.

>> Isha Vela: yeah, yeah, thank you for that. And, and when you talk about like what, what spurred you to look into sus. Because, there was a,

>> Isha Vela: Yeah. Like what was your personal journey with it?

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, that’s a really good question. so my personal journey with susu’s, I was working at a job, that paid decent at the time but wasn’t values aligned and ah, so. Excuse me, excuse me. And so, I decided I needed to leave and I wanted to commit to this calling that I had at the time around food justice, and really feeling like, focusing on food justice was where I needed to be, with my own personal relationship with like coming back to the land and understanding food and like talking about nourishing yourself. It just felt like that was the right move. But that move came with a huge price cut, in terms of what I was making. and I mean honestly, in hindsight, I was exploited. I feel like the nonprofit community, often exploits people’s passion. and when you don’t know better, you just don’t know. And oh my goodness, I promise I’m having such a good time. And I love talking about this, but the yawns are coming in. I don’t know if it’s just because the sun is beating down on my face and I’m like turning into a cat or what. Yeah, I’m just like in the sun, in my, my body’s like, yes.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah.

>> Farren Harvey: But I was at this non, profit that focused on food justice, in Bridgeport, Connecticut at the time. And I just was not making enough. my starting salary was like 27, 000 for full time.

>> Isha Vela: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that’s, that’s not enough. That’s not gonna.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, but I was like, no, this is what I need to do in order to get into the farming world. I’ll stay here for a year, then I’ll like go somewhere else. And you know, I had a little bit of savings from the last job, like 2 to 5,000 at the time. And baby, the way I went through that money so fast because I just wasn’t making enough. And so, yeah, my friend was like, oh, how about you start a Susu? And I was like, what’s a Susu? And she’s like, you never did a Susu? And so I looked into it and then I was talking to some other friends, and people about it, like, which I’d be interested in doing this thing. and for people who don’t know, Isusu is usually when a group of people, historically is typically women come together and they agree on, an amount of money that they’re going to put in for their duration of the time. And everyone put on, put that money in, for the duration of the time. So say, for example there’s 10 people, 10 women, who are doing a Susu and they agree they’re going to put $20 in each week for six months. Then they, that’s the commitment. And at the end there’s a person who’s like holding that right and making sure nothing happens to that. It’s kept safe. and so someone is responsible for that. So everyone will pay that person or give that money the money. Give, that person the money and then at the end of that six months, the person will divide it out amongst everyone evenly. and that’s kind of like how traditional Susu’s work I think was A really important context is what that allows for is a form of savings. and that’s really important. it was really important and it still is important because, oftentimes women, black and brown folks were denied loans or couldn’t access loans because they weren’t allowed. And so this was a way for folks to circumvent some of that which was like pooling their money, saving and then being able to walk away with a larger amount of money because you could do more with 2, $3,000 than what you can with a hundred dollars each month. Right. You’re able to of course, differently. And so that, that was the, the idea. And oftentimes people who are doing it, you know, are paying for kids educations or starting their small business or you know, getting supplies and materials to build them an actual home. and so that’s kind of just like the, the history of sus and Hm. I. Mine is slightly different and I know we’ll get there. But to answer your question about how did I even come m into this work of creating equitable sus. Simply put, I was working at a non profit, that was exploitive, that wasn’t paying me enough and I needed to figure out how to bring in additional money to keep me afloat. And the like traditional medicine or the traditional and ancient wisdom of, you know, our people came to me through, through the form of like friends reminding me and like that taking up the man to like to look into it and really figure out how can I do a SU with a modern twist.

>> Isha Vela: So thank you for that. And so everybody pays into it for a specific period of time and then people take turns being the recipient. Is that right? Or you did it a little bit differently where people paid into it and then it got distributed evenly.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah. So historically, a historic susu or traditional susu as I like to call it, that everyone pays in and then everyone gets paid out at the same time.

>> Isha Vela: Oh, okay. So everybody receives at the same time.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, that’s a historic su. That is not my motto though.

>> Isha Vela: Okay. because what I was reading was that people take turns being the recipient. Yeah, every. Everybody pays into it and then one person gets the whole, the whole pot, let’s say.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah.

>> Isha Vela: And then, people take turns.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah. So my. So the susu that I run is called an equitable susu.

>> Isha Vela: Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: and how I structured it is that one, it’s a susu where black and white folks are participating in.

>> Farren Harvey: And white folks are giving more than the black folks. And that’s susu. So that money is redistribute to the black folks in that susu.

>> Isha Vela: Oh my gosh, that’s really, really cool. Okay, so it’s kind of. Yes. Equitable. So you’re equalizing. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: So for example, black Folks have to put in anywhere from 20 to $100.

>> Isha Vela: Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: For, white folks to participate, they have to put in 200 or more.

>> Isha Vela: Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: Right. And so the. The money that white folks are putting and then goes just to the. To the black folks when they collect. And so your question around how does the payout work? The way that I designed my SUSU was instead me having to be the holder of the money and then paying everyone else at the end, once every. You know, after we. After the duration of time we commit to that. That just felt a. I didn’t have the capacity for that. I didn’t want to be responsible. Mixing up, you know, I was worried about mixing up my money with the Susan money, and I didn’t want to have to, like, figure out how to keep folks accountable, like, show my accountability process. I wanted to be hands off as possible. still something that was handled with care, that was intentional, but didn’t require a lot of me necessarily holding the money, because rightfully so, people had questions all around, how can we see the money? How can. It’s not there? And because, at the time I was working with limited resources and capacity, what I decided would have been best is, I pick a month. I, pick a day of the month. So it’s a standing time. So when I run my susu’s, it’s like every 15th of the month is when someone is due to collect. So what I do is each person, say there’s like 10 people in my equitable susu, each person is assigned a month. So if the SUSU runs from January to October, you will be assigned January. Angie will be signed, you know, February, Amelia will be signed March, I will be signed April, and so on and so forth. And so your month, everyone in that group is sending you the money. And you don’t have to. You don’t have to put in. Right. So everyone is like. I like to think of it as, you know, the. The day we’re making it rain on you with money. So you’re just getting showered with money that day. So say your month was April. You’re starting us off. That means you’re not even sending anything. Automatically. Everyone is sending things to you. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

>> Isha Vela: Wow, that’s brilliant. And did you specifically design it that way because you didn’t want to hold the money or didn’t want to be responsible for that?

>> Farren Harvey: Yes.

>> Isha Vela: That’s amazing. That’s amazing because everywhere that I was reading, it was like, one person has to be assigned, like, you said. And they have to set it aside. Okay. And then you, obviously, if you. If you’re holding the money, you have to be transparent about where it is and what you’re doing with it. And. Wow. Okay. That is really. That is really cool. That is very ingenious of you to create sort of like a. To circumvent that whole. That whole transparency holding piece. Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: That was. And that’s also. With. You know, the SUU is still a lot of work, even with that piece of me not having to hold the money financially. And, you know, I’ve been through so many reiterations of the susu. Like when I first started, A. I started off really small. I can’t emphasize that enough.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, say more about that.

>> Farren Harvey: You know, I think people see, like, the post and they see the numbers and they’re like, oh, my God, yes, yes, yes. And they really want to create their own. And I love that. And I’m excited for this to, like, take off. because at the end of the day is community. and are like, interpersonal relationships that will save us. it’s laborious, and people have stuff with money. I have with money. You have stuff with money. You, loved one have stuff with money. How we interact with money. Right. It can bring up a lot of stuff. And also, you know, trust is really important. How can I make sure that I’m running this thing and people are not gonna, you know, sign up and then collect and then take off and I never hear from them and then it messes up.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Farren Harvey: So I. So to do. To handle all of that and. And really get a grasp of what I’m. I’m building. I really started off slow. The first SU That I did have four people in it. It was me and three other people. Okay, Right. So it was me and two other friends and one white, woman who was also. Who’s also a really good friend of mine. but it was just us four. And at the time, it was like, black folks put in 50, white folks put in 100.

>> Isha Vela: Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: That was the first reiteration of the sue. okay.

>> Isha Vela: And it was very manageable.

>> Farren Harvey: Very manageable, very small. And, you know, I think that is what I just would recommend. Anyone’s listening who is really interested is start off small. I. It’s a running joke. Like, my friends, like, we know you love a little, A little pilot, a little test run. And I’m like, amen. And, you know, it’s to. Is to work out those kinks. Because the thing that’s happening is these are, at least for me, in the beginning phases, these are relationships that I care about deeply. one on one, like, these are my personal relationships. These are not like acquaintance or like people in the community or out distance. No, these are the people who I’m m. Writing for, who write for me. And now we’re bringing money into the dynamics of our relationship and that. And so maybe let’s go slow. Let’s go real slow. Let’s cruise on down the road. Okay.

>> Isha Vela: Seriously? Yeah. And I mean, people always talk about like friendship and money and things like that. What kind of things did you notice that came up around money? Like, what kind of money stuff comes up right. In those first, let’s say the first three rounds of your equitable susu. What kind of stuff came up?

>> Farren Harvey: stuff that came up was like, how am I choosing the order of people who get to go first? You know, who was a single mom of three and she was the last black woman to collect in a susu. Before her was, ah, single folks, who didn’t have kids. And she was like, yeah, I think that’s just weird. Like I, as a mom, right. I have more, you know, I have more stuff to do. I have more needs. I’m taking, you know, I’m taking care of kids. And yet I was the last one to collect. and so, you know, the intentionality around. Well, why, why am I being the last one to collect? Or why did I put this person as the last one to collect?

>> Isha Vela: and how do you work something like that out? Like, okay, she’s right. Where do you go from there? Do you just change the order or is it a longer conversation?

>> Farren Harvey: I think there’s a. It’s a. And like, she’s right. And also at the time, right. I had reasons. Right.

>> Isha Vela: okay.

>> Farren Harvey: So I think it’s being transparent. And that’s again, why relationship building is so hard. Yeah, she. She is right. She was, you know, she is a single mom. She had three. And I was worried that she was maybe going to be the flightiest. And so for, you got the bottom and flightiest might not be the. Actually, flighty is not the right word. I was worried that she wouldn’t have the means to meet the amount that she agreed on the $50.

>> Isha Vela: Got it.

>> Farren Harvey: I put her at the end to make. So because when you put someone at the end, that means they can’t collect and leave. And so because I was concerned about her ability to hold it, instead, he Just naming that. What I did as a form of protection, for the. The sue at large was just put her at the end to collect.

>> Isha Vela: And you said that to her, like, you named that transparently?

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, I named that. and, you know, we talked about it and she was like, why? Like, I thought I expressed that I was interested, that I would commit. And I was like, you said that, but I also was interpreting your body language, saying something else. And I really wasn’t sure. And also. Right. We’re newer in our relationship.

>> Isha Vela: Okay. Okay. Wow. I mean, Farron, it’s. So I’m just sitting here, mind blown, because there is a lot of emotional energy that is invested in something like this. Like, it’s. On the surface, it looks like it’s very, like, functional. You put the money in, you take turns. Or it is an equitable su. Where there is our, different tiers of giving and then the distribution is equal or, you know, done in a particular way. But then there’s all of the. All of the processing that is part of it. Right. All of the people’s money stuff. What kinds of other stuff that came up?

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, I mean, other stuff that comes up is, you know, black folks, typically had stuff around money, like maybe shame or guilt to over give. sure. That they weren’t a burden in our space or they were putting in the right amount. and then white folks was walking around with so much damn guilt that they wanted to over give and not be sustainable. And so m. I had to do was. I had to acknowledge that that’s what was happening in the space. and name it explicitly. That, like, how I think about what the number is that you are putting in a. For black people. I was just like, you know, that. That belief that we are taking advantage of, that we should, you know, just be able to get it out of the mud ourselves. Or that, you know, reparations is something silly. You know, that is just all rooted in white supremacy. culture and understanding that, you know, capitalism and racism are so deeply intertwined and you need one for the other. That’s why we’re where we’re at.

>> Isha Vela: Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: So, you know, part of it was actually like just naming, like, you know, white supremacy is operating in the space. It is telling us that we are unworthy. We have internalized those messages and internalized that there is something wrong with us, because we. We can’t figure out, maintaining or functioning in capitalism. And so to combat those narratives, black folks are giving above their, you know, their capacity. M. Right. And you know, that also goes back to a bit to me around I think about respectability, politics. Well, if I just dress a certain way, if I show up, if I’m, you know, if I look a certain way, then, then I will be taken more seriously as a black.

>> Farren Harvey: So if I give more, if I, if I show, I, you know, I could give at a higher amount. I could prove that I’m not a burden in this space. I could, I could be taken more seriously.

>> Isha Vela: M m, wow. That’s huge. So, so deeply rooted. And you were the one mostly facilitating these conversations because. Is that your special sauce too? Like. Yeah. Working through all of this stuff.

>> Farren Harvey: Yes, yes. So I’m the one who’s leading all of these conversations. And so I usually just stop it there. I’m like, you know, I created the su. Not for black people, but because I needed it. Which means black people. Right. Also benefit from it. But so there is no separation from like me and the people participating in the susu. Because I participate in each susu that I run.

>> Farren Harvey: Why? Because capitalism is whipping my ass and I need money.

>> Isha Vela: Right, Right.

>> Farren Harvey: Oh my gosh. So one, I make it very clear I’m participating in it. I actually don’t see anything wrong with it. I actually believe that black folks in this country, in the United States are old reparations. reparations is something that would have to come from the government. That is not happening. And so, yeah, the government is like, sorry, we, we captured y’, all, brought y’ all over here, tortured y’, all, made y’ all believe y’ all were less than, justify it through like Christianity and then internalize it. And now y’ all are air quote free, even though y’ all were never free and y’ all never got the reparations y’ all needed. You know, we can’t just rely on the government. And we also just have to understand that, while reparations is a, ah, thing that I believe in, it may not come from the government in my lifetime. But what can I do to make sure black folks has a little bit more ease and a little bit more breathing room? and that is I could support the redistribution of wealth from white folks to black folks.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. I’m just kind of sitting here thinking about it, because it’s so like you’re, you’re all, you’re creating it, right? You’re not waiting for the government to do it, you’re creating it. And then all of the all of the stuff that comes up for people and people feeling guilty for receiving, I’m hearing. And then feeling guilty about having more or the privilege. Right. White privilege. And, and then overgiving. yeah, yeah. And, and, and you, from what I hear you saying, you kind of neutralized it in that. Yep, I’m participating in this too. There’s nothing wrong with receiving. There’s nothing wrong with, you know, working through this process. Da da, da da. It sounds like you kind of just neutralized all of the, all of the charge, like I like to call it that comes up around money and this practice.

>> Farren Harvey: And you know, what I will say is I also made it clear that like this is a transactional thing because that’s also, I think important. People got to build relationships with everything and you don’t necessarily have to do that. It’s okay if you want to do that. But I also made it explicit, like this is a transactional thing.

>> Isha Vela: Thing.

>> Farren Harvey: And I also named that because one of the things that happens is when, you know, white folks redistribute, money to black folks, then it’s this like expectation, like, oh, well, we’re friends now or we’re close or we have a relationship. And it’s like, that is not what we’re doing here. This is explicitly a transactional relationship. And if people do desire to have a bit more of a personal relationship and get to know folks in a space. I used to, the last few susus I haven’t done this, but I used to run and I would recommend it if the capacity is there. a one time call with everyone on it so everyone can get to know each other and see who’s in the room so they can see who they’re being accountable to. And if people have interests and they want to connect outside of the susu, then they get to do that. And it doesn’t rely on me itself choosing. And also I named that at the top that again, just because white folks are giving or redistributing money doesn’t mean that they’re older. Relationship.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, okay. That’s very important to know. This is all like, I love that you’re bringing so much. Like we could just sit on this call and talk about sort of the how it works and all of the transactional pieces. But this is all of the human stuff that comes in, right? People’s desires to connect. And then you’re like, well, you know, you’re not owed a relationship just because you’re in this group. You know, you may do that. But that’s not necessarily, like, what this is about. So this is a really important nuance to iron out. And this is. Yeah. And I want to ask you sort of a more challenging question. Like, have you lost friendships because of this, this practice? Or like, have people gotten really mad and walked away, for example?

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, I haven’t lost any friends during this practice, but people were disappointed or, didn’t realize that, like, I had. So two things is happening for me. One, I also want to talk about, how I handle, like, white folks and over giving, because that’s a real thing. And if you want, I think we, like for your Susu, I think that’s just something we should return to. So that train of thought, before I lose it.

>> Isha Vela: Yes.

>> Farren Harvey: second, in regards to the question that you just asked around, did people. Did I lose relationships? I didn’t lose relationships, but, the SUSU have some growing pains. you know, I talk to everyone who joins the susu, of course, because I run it, I’m the holder of it. And one of the things that I realized is people will say yes to you because they love you, they know you, but sometimes they’re not listening to the thing that you’re. You’re saying, hey, I want, I do this thing and I want you to be a part of it. And know, one black person was like, I didn’t realize there was going to be white people in it. And I am deeply offended that I participated in a SUSU that had white people because of the historic content, context of why SUSU happen. And like, it being predominantly a woman led a thing, and predominantly being black and brown. And I was like, yeah, but, you know, white people are redistributing. And at the time, though this was again in the earlier phase when I was still piloting and shifting, black people did have the option to, redistribute at a higher amount, like white folks. And this person self selected that. So, you know, where other black folks was putting in $70, this black person was putting in 140. And when she realized that she was putting in the same amount as folks, she was pissed because she was like, my debt is higher. My, like, income. Yeah, I have a high income. But because of my debt and because of the cultural expectation of sending money back home to my family, which I do, because my family absolutely needs it, I actually am not working with the same amount of money.

>> Isha Vela: Right, right.

>> Farren Harvey: right. And so I had to sit with that. I had to hear that. And so, you know, One of the things that I embedded in my SUSU is for folks to give me feedback, and for folks to hear, like, what’s maybe not working for them so that I could again, keep tinkering and improving. And so based off of that. Right. you know, something that I factored in when I’m having conversations with people, both black and white folks, is the amount you should put in is based off of those things. Like, do you have. Will you have inherited wealth or a house or something in the near future? Do you have debt? Do you support your family? Right. do you support your family outside of your immediate family? Right. Maybe your mom or extended family, however you want to. Or do you need to send money back home? Like, these are all things that you have to think about.

>> Isha Vela: Wow. And do. Do you put people through, like, an interview process where you ask all these questions prior to them coming in?

>> Farren Harvey: Yes.

>> Isha Vela: Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: The interview process is, Now I use a form, like, just an interest form. Like, yeah, hey, are you interested in being a part of the 2026 Light Susu? Fill out this form. People will fill out the form and put the preliminary. Preliminary information, which is helpful. But then I have to get on the phone with everyone. For people who have participated in the SUSU more than twice, I don’t need to talk to people because they understand how it works. They saw it, they get it. I don’t need to talk to. But for new people, absolutely. I have to talk to them.

>> Isha Vela: Okay. And what do you say to them?

>> Farren Harvey: I’ve heard of it in a while. So if you were a part of it in 2018, and now here it is, 2025, and you’re like, I want to sign up. Well, let’s.

>> Isha Vela: Just.

>> Farren Harvey: Because it’s a. Running it then is different now.

>> Isha Vela: Absolutely. It evolves. Right. and for the new people, what do you say to them? What are the kinds of things that you talk to them about?

>> Farren Harvey: Well, it’s. It’s really a vetting process because not. I don’t just accept anyone in the suit. Yeah. The only way you could be a part of the suit is if I know you directly or if you’re one step removed.

>> Isha Vela: Okay. Friend of a friend kind of thing.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah. So you’re getting in because Isha recommended you, and I personally have a relationship with Isha, and I know, I’m. I trust Isha a bit more. And if this person up, I’m gonna be like, you gotta get your friend. What the. What time are you. Why would you recommend? Right. Like, why Would you recommend your friend? Yeah. Oh, they were not good. Or like, yes, your friend locked in and understood the assignment, and we’re good.

>> Isha Vela: Okay. Okay. And what are you looking for in a vetting process?

>> Farren Harvey: specifically for white folks? I want to make sure that they understand it’s not their money and they don’t get. They don’t have ownership or they can’t ask about how people are using their money, which is what I’ve had, like, before happened and had to turn specifically white women away because, you know, they heard about it through their friend and they’re in the. You know, I just didn’t realize that some of these people that was being referred to me was in the beginning of their undoing racism work. And so, you know, this person was, referred to me, and one of the things that she said was just like, well, can I ask what people are doing with my money?

>> Isha Vela: Oh, my God.

>> Farren Harvey: Do I get a, Do I get to see receipts about how people use the money?

>> Isha Vela: Oh, hell no.

>> Farren Harvey: And I was like, oh, thank you so much for asking those questions. That’s really good. But I actually don’t think you are a fit for the susu, because one, you don’t understand the basic thing, which is it’s not your money. Yes, you have access to the money and you inherited it or got it some way, but the money that you have, the ability, the privilege. Right. It’s from the historic disadvantage.

>> Isha Vela: Yes, yes. From the marginalization, like the intentional marginalization of black and brown folks participating in the economic. Economic, system.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah.

>> Isha Vela: Okay. All right.

>> Farren Harvey: I’m listening to how, like, white people specifically are talking about their money. Because the thing is, you don’t want to just say yes to anyone or everyone who’s like, yeah, I want to be a part of it. And I’ll. I’ll give you the. I’ll. I’ll redistribute $300 a month for the next, you know, 12 months. You don’t want to do that. And every month she’s like, well, let me see what you use the money for. Let me see the receipts. Because then that’s creating a whole dynamic of this white woman, police and black folks in this space in the idea that white and. Or affluent people know how to, use their money better, smarter than how like, working class poor folks. right. Their money. And the thing is, like, working class poor folks, they’re not actually dumb. A. We gotta understand that they just don’t have enough of a resource. And so it’s very expensive. To be poor and trusted. That poor person knows how the money needs to be used in order for them to navigate the system.

>> Isha Vela: Exactly. No, and it would be disastrous to have someone like that who is thinking about, it being their money. It would be disastrous for someone like that to participate in the susu. It would, it would, yeah.

>> Farren Harvey: It would erode the trust. The black people would be getting pissed. They will be getting pissed at me. The white people who are air quote a part of this work and understand will be shocked. And they will need time to process. And maybe they would want support and calling out this other white woman. And now I’m in the whole process, right?

>> Isha Vela: Oh, my gosh.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah. So we’re. So, we’re not doing that. And so, you know, the vetting process is for a. To make sure alignment is happening across all race lines. But specifically for folks who are redistributing money, that’s particularly important because it lets you know where their thinking is at. And you, again, you want to mitigate harm as much as possible.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, okay.

>> Farren Harvey: And then for black folks, that call is important, especially if there’s their first time, because again, you want them to pick a number that’s sustainable. I mean, I also say this to white folks. I had a white woman be like, oh, I could give high, you know, I could give $500. And I was like, oh, okay, great. And I said, okay, I just want to check in. Can you give that for the next nine to 12 months? This was. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I couldn’t give that. And I was like, okay, no, I could give that amount for like two to three months. And I was like, oh, that’s great. I said, but I want you to come back and I want this to be sustainable. So I need you to come back with a number that is sustainable for nine to 12 months. And that number went from 500 to 200.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, yeah, yeah, makes sense, right? Just stretch it out over the, over the 12 months.

>> Farren Harvey: And then with black folks, I also want to make sure they’re. They’re picking a number where, yes, they’re stretching their. Themselves, but it’s not causing them more stress. Like, have you considered, have you thought about all of your bills? How you thought about the fact that you have to like, send money home? Have you thought about, like, your debt ratio? and like, is this the number you’re saying because you want to prove something, or is this number actually, like, feasible? And so. Right, like walking it back and supporting black folks and also making a Number. Deciding the number or making sure the number that they chose is sustainable is also important in that regard.

>> Isha Vela: That’s huge. Yeah. And then circling back to the conversation about the over giving, guilt. Over giving from a place of guilt with white folks. You know, we said put a pin in that. And I want to come back to that. This feels like a good spot to bring it back.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, as a thing, I think, you know, is interesting with doing this work around like just money and interacting with folks who have money and don’t have it. Because what, what is interested is that there is shame and guilt on both sides.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah.

>> Farren Harvey: And people who have money feel guilty and embarrassed and ashamed because, you know, money is, is nasty. It’s a horrible thing. It caused so much strife. They have so much of it and the people around them don’t. And so it’s like they, people get paralyzed by it. People want to get rid of it. They don’t want to deal with it. They want to be in denial. Like, well, I’m not rich or I don’t have money, but my, my mom does, but I don’t. I’m, but I work or I don’t, I’m not seeing any of that money or I turned down my inheritance to like to, you know, to, to prove. And it’s like, baby, you didn’t have to do that. There were so many other ways you could be in conversation with, you know, shifting the narrative about money and all of the things. And so it’s really important when you’re working with white folks that you emphasize, the, that you want them to stretch and be a little uncomfortable. Right. A little, outside of my comfort zone. But I never will again. It’s never about white people also suffering.

>> Farren Harvey: Like I’m pretty clear about as there is no world for me in which I’m like, give me all of your resources. So then you are now suffering. That’s not what we’re asking or what I’m asking. I’m asking, hey, your cup is overflowing. You are actually full. Let me get that overflow and actually, let me just pour a little bit out of this cup. So when you’re walking around with your cup, it’s not filled to the brim and you’re spilling it and it’s being wasted. Right. Analogy. You still have your needs met. You are still able to take care of yourself. White person who’s redistributing. But what’s happening is this money that you would have used frivolously is being redirected and supporting, a black person having a little bit more ease or a little bit more capacity to know that one month they’re able to make it and they don’t have to worry about how.

>> Isha Vela: That’s awesome. That’s so good.

>> Farren Harvey: So

>> Isha Vela: what, now that you’ve been running them for many, many years, what are the, the sizes that you run now? You said at the beginning it was like four people, your besties. Right. Small amounts. What are the kinds of sizes you run now?

>> Farren Harvey: They’re typically like 30 to 40.

>> Isha Vela: Wow.

>> Farren Harvey: So that means I’m typically running multiple susus. Like the susu that just finished, that started in 2025 but ended in 2026. there was four groups and they had about 11. I think there was 10. I don’t have the, the numbers quite in front of me, but there were like 10, 10 and 10 and 9 or something like that.

>> Isha Vela: So the number of people in each one.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, like one group, another group had 10 people and then another group had 10 people and then one group had like nine people.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, got it.

>> Farren Harvey: Simultaneously.

>> Isha Vela: And you’re doing all of the, the management of charge for all of those groups?

>> Farren Harvey: I am. Wow.

>> Isha Vela: Oh my God. I hope. Do you get paid on that labor? Because that’s labor.

>> Farren Harvey: It is labor. And about three years ago I just started like charging and it’s not a lot because I never wanted to feel like, I mean a. I also had to work through my stuff that was coming up, which is I didn’t want to feel like I was doing this and taking advantage of black folks. and, and what was quickly was happening is I was like, well, I’m feeling some type of way because this is very laborsome. And you know, I also had to like reckon the style that I needed to be paid for the labor. Like it takes a lot to, to run. To run these. And so the compromise for myself was having a tiered. A tiered pay into the susu for my labor. So if this is your first time participating in a SUSU, you pay $30. If this is your second time, you pay $20. Your third or more time, you just pay me $10.

>> Isha Vela: I see. Okay. Okay. Right. Because assuming that the person will be, will bring with them less labor because they’ve already been through the process several times and so they know

>> Farren Harvey: you

>> Isha Vela: won’t have to spend as much time with them.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, they know what to expect. I trust that they won’t take, you know, collect during their turn and Then just run off. Right. Like there’s the reason why that number is so low because there is actually amount of trust that is happening.

>> Isha Vela: Right. Okay.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, I just want to pause one second. Sure. I just need to get water.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, no worries.

>> Farren Harvey: My mouth is so dry and I’m like, oh my God. I’m just turning to cat and mouth. I didn’t want that to be captured in the background. So, you know, if we’re running. Sorry, person who has to edit this out.

>> Isha Vela: so just to close out the conversation, how have you seen this practice evolve, like digitally or otherwise? Like, That’s one question that I want to ask. You know, in terms of the money, I mean, you do it differently in that, you know, the money is coming from people’s accounts and it goes directly into another person’s accounts. I mean, back in the day I’m sure it would be just like a little cash pot. but it doesn’t so much apply to your model. But if there’s, you know, if somebody else is doing sort of the money handling piece and they, they might open up a high yield savings account, for example, and have the money like a separate. That is just for the susu for this particular group of people and then distribute the money from there. Yeah. Okay. And you know, this is. There have been scams that imitate Susu’s right. That are like essentially pyramid schemes. How. How do people recognize the real thing from a fake one?

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, yeah, that is a really good one because I also participated in asus. I mean, I intentionally chose to do it because me and my friends were all seeing it, come up at a time. It was like a fire or a flower, something mess. And you. The one that I was invited to was like, you put in 500, and then you like more people put in and then you get. They give you the 500. And I think what I would say in terms of how to spot them is asking people. Okay, like you ran a Susu. Can I talk to the people, some people that you might have ran a Susu with or done a Susu with. I, think asking people about their experience, if that is possible. Is helpful.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah. Okay, so to, for the people who are participating, to also vet the facilitator.

>> Farren Harvey: Vet them. You gotta vet them. You can’t just take them off of word.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, okay.

>> Farren Harvey: also, I think if it feels like it’s this idea of infinite, like you gotta pull in this person and that person gotta fill in, pulling five people and Then that per. And then each of those five people have to fill in a 5%. You see how we just keep going down the tree, down the tree, down the tree. There’s no.

>> Isha Vela: So that’s more of like a network marketing model. Right. Where it’s network based. But that wouldn’t, that wouldn’t work for isusu because it is built on trust. And those people are coming in. They haven’t been vetted. there are friends of friends of friends and yeah, that’s not a ah, sound model in terms of like just anybody coming in.

>> Farren Harvey: Yes.

>> Isha Vela: To be very intentional.

>> Farren Harvey: It needs to be very intentional. But there also needs to be a closeout. So with that. Right. Okay, well if I join that then I. The people who I’m inviting. So I invite you and let’s say Angie. Then you and Angie gotta find four people. Then each of those four people gotta find five people. Why are we branching off so much? Where does it loop back or close? How do we close it out? We’re not closing it out. It just keeps going. It just keeps going. No, that’s not, that’s not how that.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, right. It has to like. It has to be a closed container. And then people travel together. Right. For the next, you know, 12 months they travel together and they do this journey together.

>> Farren Harvey: Exactly. Exactly.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah. Because then the payouts wouldn’t work if you have. Okay, that makes sense. Oh my gosh, this was amazing. Can you please let my listeners know where to find you, where to learn more about this? Do you have like a, a resource for them that you can guide them to?

>> Farren Harvey: Yes, yes. if folks are interested they could find me over@farensview um.com. i will send you my like my website and my Yeah, I’ll just send you my website and my IG and people could find me there and I’ll see all of the links. The website will bring them to the. Contact me if they wanted to maybe have a discovery call and figure out if we could. If they want to work together. in terms of getting more information on this susu. I don’t have my information up personally. There is some like protection that I wanted around it in terms of making sure. Not that people can’t replicate but making sure that I’m not attracting too much attention in the sense of you know, the government or people who might. This for something that is antithetical to what I believe.

>> Isha Vela: Yes, yes.

>> Farren Harvey: So I don’t share the information of the behind the scenes as much Unless you’re a part of this YouTube.

>> Isha Vela: Got it.

>> Farren Harvey: Interested? definitely willing to have like conversations, or being brought in to talk it through with them and their friends or if they’re interested in starting one with their organization. Because also there’s organizations who are doing susu.

>> Isha Vela: Yes. So you offer those consultations.

>> Farren Harvey: Yeah, for sure.

>> Isha Vela: Okay, fantastic. That’s brilliant. Yeah. Because it’s such an incredible resource and as we shift more towards like community based stuff, this will be a part of it. And like you said, there’s. And as we discovered over this conversation, it’s so much more complex than you see on paper. Right. You think going in is like, oh, this is transactional. And then you’re like, no, this is actually much more involved.

>> Farren Harvey: Much more involved.

>> Isha Vela: Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Faran, thank you so much for, for offering your, your wisdom and your, your knowledge and your time to this conversation. And everything’s, for the listeners, everything’s going to be linked in the, in the notes.

>> Farren Harvey: You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

>> Isha Vela: All right, thank you everyone. Thank you for listening to today’s episode. Remember to hit the subscribe button to get notified of new episodes dropped on the new and full moons of each month. And if you haven’t already, leave us a five star review on itunes to make sure that everyone who needs this transmission receives it. Until the next episode, I’m sending you fierce, fierce love.